Wholesale Dealers? Who are they?

FullStrike

From time to time I've run across the term "wholesale dealer" as in " he's one of the major wholesale dealers". Just what is a wholesale Dealer? I would think it's someone who wholesales Coins - duh.

But who are these wholesale dealers? Who do they sell to and who do they buy from? What types of coins do they buy and sell? Do they only buy the most attractive coins or all coins in general?

I suppose I'm looking for inside information here. I don't neccessarily want to buy or sell to any wholesale dealers - I'm just trying to figure out where they fit into the Coin Market.

roadrunner

Wholesalers are probably the largest contingent of all dealers.
When you go to a local show most of the people set up are probably wholesalers who work part time, or do most of their business with other dealers. While they do sell to the public and have clients, they need a steady stream of dealer sales to keep liquid.

Even at a large national show, a large % of the tables are taken by wholesalers. While most wholesalers do some retail business, most retailers survive just on retail sales. Retailers do move stale inventory out via wholesalers and auction houses at times.

The market has become much more efficient over the years such that imo more wholesaling goes on than ever before. It is getting harder to find true retailers out there.

roadrunner

kranky

Look around at shows, and look for the tables with lots of stuff around but no nicely setup display cases (if any at all).

roadrunner's comment about dealers moving out stale inventory to wholesalers - they are also a good opportunity for dealers to handle cash flow problems. Even if you lost money on the deal by selling stock to a wholesaler instead of at retail, it would be a small price to pay for instant liquidity (in normal market conditions).

rays

Spectrum (the king of cash)
They sell nothing to collectors

roadrunner

Spectrum certainly must sell something to collectors, but I'm sure they make it more difficult than it needs to be. The one time I approached them I had a $17K coin tossed at me like it was a piece of candy. This was the 3rd time I had returned to the table to ask about it. The service was not impressive and I ended up going elsewhere to buy a similar coin. I'm sure things have improved since Dale joined them, but in this business you often don't get a 2nd chance. Just too many other players that will give you service.

I would gurss that many of Spectrum's "collector" sales now occur via Kingswood or Teletrade. In any case, I think more dealers lean towards the wholesale side today.

roadrunner

FullStrike

Good info here. I just googled Spectrum and it does look like they are indeed "the King of Cash" as they say they are. I suppose I need to start hanging out at large Coin Shows because I had previously never heard of them. For them being the Dealer who purchased the King of Siam set, my ignorance is simply inexcusable.

And here I thought I was entering the big time for buying MS65 Peace Dollars from the likes of Albanese and ANR.

jpkinla

Well let's get it right.....

Spectrum is just one of the divisions which also owns Bowers and Merena, Teletrade and also North American Certified Trading....

I have sold them coins, visited their offices and done some business....

I have found NACT to be high priced, B & M to have decent coins but not great coins in my area of emphasis (gold) and have never done any business with Teletrade...

Spectrum is mainly an upgrade firm, not a wholesaler.....They buy coins that have a chance of upgrading and then most likely sell them through their retail channels....

You will not find coins offered by Spectrum.....BTW all coins are reviewed by the owner BEFORE they are offered I have heard.....

I think it is Greg Roberts?

Anyone want to add some factual data here......???

amercoin

Check the Cheapslabstore.com

WTCG

<< <i>Spectrum (the king of cash)
They sell nothing to collectors >>



That's not true at all. Spectrum has two distinct retailing arms at their disposal, not including Teletrade.

It is very possible for collectors to have never heard of Spectrum, but a dealer who has not heard of Spectrum is akin to full time a car dealer who has never heard of General Motors. Greg Roberts is the president of Spectrum.

It also does not matter if the president or company owner personally reviews all the coins before they become available for sale. Often times the head of the company is not the best grader on staff.

Among the larger wholesalers they include: Heritage, US Coins, National Gold Exchange, Jason Carter Numismatics, John Schuch, John Love, Coleman Foster, etc.

relayer

Doop(s)

UncleJoe

Based on the offers I get or the price I sell my coins sell for: ME.

Joe.

pontiacinf

<< <i>Doop(s) >>



hahahaha

bikenut

Let me try to define the term 'wholesaler' as it applies to another industry. Take, for example, the hardware or tool industry. A wholesaler would be the warehouser who will buy for example, 100 snow shovels or 100 power drills from a manufacturer at a small margin and in turn sell the product in smaller lots to the retailer. The retailer, usually some sort of local hardware store, will in turn sell the product one at a time to the customer....or end user. Retailers sell to the users. Unfortunately, or fortunately, this way of doing business in the snow shovel and tool world has changed with the birth of the megastore. Warehousing is vanishing as a link in the chain from manufacturer to user. The megastores (Home Depot....Lowes....) either do not warehouse or do not pay for warehousing. They bring the product into the store directly from the manufacturer or they warehouse it themselves. They buy the product from the manufacturer and sell to the user. They are both wholesaler and retailer.
The term 'wholesaler' in the coin industry always fascinated me. (Maybe it's because of my interpretation of the term. I'm sure the definition of wholesale as it applies to the coin industry may have other meanings to other people.....but I can assure you the term was used in the hardware business way before it appeared in the coin industry.) If my definition of wholesale is accepted and used in the coin industry then a wholesaler would only sell to a retailer.....and not the end user or customer or collector. Wholesalers, like the ones mentioned above, would only sell on small margins to coin shops and dealers who in turn would sell to collectors. What collector for example, would ever be interested in six 1935 PCGS 66 red wheats all at once? Even at a discount? He might want one, but never all six. A dealer (retailer) however, might buy all six and sell them piecemeal.
Bulk lot buying, when it exisits, like the one I mentioned above, is the only link to wholesaling that is still in effect today in the coin industry. Wholesalers will sell to anyone as long as they can get their price. It's true that over the years wholesalers have established a network of buyers where they know they can go to turn over a product in short time. The network consists of other wholesaler, other retailers, and collectors also. They may try for higher margins depending on the customer, but in the end they will take the profit that they need regardless of who the buyer is. Pricing levels hardly ever apply. There's so much readily available information, especially when it comes to certified coins that it's common knowledge now what a particular coin sells for on the open market. Some collectors, many here on these boards, are better informed than many of the dealers. (That's not a put down on the dealers mind you. It's just my take on the market. True collectors spend many waking hours looking for ONE coin. Dealers don't work that way.)
Wholesaleing is disappearing in the hardware industry. And in the coin industry also.....
That's my spin. It's not gospel. It's a thought....
Denis....AKA..bikenut.

rays

Spectrum Numismatics, the King of cash:

I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail.

Try walking up to Spectrum's booth some day and see what type of reception you meet.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail. >>



An attitude like that is industrial strength stupid IMHO. Why would you sell to another dealer or whatever for less than you would get from the end customer; especially when you are in a venue where that end customer is quite prominent?

pharmer

<< <i>

<< <i>Spectrum (the king of cash)
They sell nothing to collectors >>



That's not true at all. Spectrum has two distinct retailing arms at their disposal, not including Teletrade.

It is very possible for collectors to have never heard of Spectrum, but a dealer who has not heard of Spectrum is akin to full time a car dealer who has never heard of General Motors. Greg Roberts is the president of Spectrum.

It also does not matter if the president or company owner personally reviews all the coins before they become available for sale. Often times the head of the company is not the best grader on staff.

Among the larger wholesalers they include: Heritage, US Coins, National Gold Exchange, Jason Carter Numismatics, John Schuch, John Love, Coleman Foster, etc. >>






Thanks for specifically answering the original question. I've wondered who they are also, and the initial answers given point out why I didn't know.

rays

<< <i>

<< <i>I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail. >>



An attitude like that is industrial strength stupid IMHO. Why would you sell to another dealer or whatever for less than you would get from the end customer; especially when you are in a venue where that end customer is quite prominent? >>




Because they are a strictly wholesale operation. Check their website, it offers to buy only, not sell. They have no coin listings in any of their Coinworld ads.

Shamika

<< <i> Spectrum Numismatics, the King of cash: >>


I can't believe I've never heard of these guys.

BAJJERFAN

An attitude like that is industrial strength stupid IMHO. Why would you sell to another dealer or whatever for less than you would get from the end customer; especially when you are in a venue where that end customer is quite prominent? >>

Because they are a strictly wholesale operation. Check their website, it offers to buy only, not sell. They have no coin listings in any of their Coinworld ads.

xxx
Be that as it may and I don't really care one way or the other, it makes no sense to me to pass up the chance to flip something for an instant profit when you are eventually going to sell it anyway unless you bought it to fill a want list.

WTCG

<< <i>Spectrum Numismatics, the King of cash:

I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail.

Try walking up to Spectrum's booth some day and see what type of reception you meet. >>



That's not true either. How do you think I started a relationship with them?

rays

<< <i>

<< <i>Spectrum Numismatics, the King of cash:

I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail.

Try walking up to Spectrum's booth some day and see what type of reception you meet. >>



That's not true either. How do you think I started a relationship with them? >>




Your sig line says you are a member of PNG. Would I be correct, then, in assuming you are a dealer?

MrEureka

Why would you sell to another dealer or whatever for less than you would get from the end customer; especially when you are in a venue where that end customer is quite prominent?

Perhaps because they believe it is good business not to compete with their biggest customers: retailers.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Spectrum Numismatics, the King of cash:

I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail.

Try walking up to Spectrum's booth some day and see what type of reception you meet. >>



That's not true either. How do you think I started a relationship with them? >>




Your sig line says you are a member of PNG. Would I be correct, then, in assuming you are a dealer? >>



I am now a member of the PNG, and I am currently the single youngest member. I haven't always been a member of the PNG or a dealer, which means that I started off small somewhere, sometime ago.

rays

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Spectrum Numismatics, the King of cash:

I have never, in over a decade of attending large coin shows, seen them sell a coin to a collector. Yes they have a booth. Yes they have other divisions that sell retail.

Try walking up to Spectrum's booth some day and see what type of reception you meet. >>



That's not true either. How do you think I started a relationship with them? >>




Your sig line says you are a member of PNG. Would I be correct, then, in assuming you are a dealer? >>



I am now a member of the PNG, and I am currently the single youngest member. I haven't always been a member of the PNG or a dealer, which means that I started off small somewhere, sometime ago. >>



Well I'm glad you had a positive experience with Spectrum. I haven't. The original thread question was:

Wholesale Dealers? Who are they?


If Spectrum doesn't fit that description, no-one does.

bikenut

How's this for a simpler answer to the difference between wholesale and retail.
Let's use my limited knowledge of the Mass. sales tax law. A wholesaler does not pay or collect the sales tax. He buys a product only to resell it. He is not the end user. When the wholsesaler sells to the retailer, that retailer does not pay a sales tax to the wholesaler either because he is not the end user. However, when the retailer sells to the customer or end user, he collects the sales tax from the customer.
Therefore, using that scenario, the difference between a wholesaler and a retailer is the retailer collects the sales tax from his customer, the end user.
In the coin world, the end user is the collector.
Now discussion out there is whether a particular large coin outfit sells to the end user, the collector. I have no idea. But when that same outfit markets a coin, how do they decide whether a customer is a retailer....and not an end user?
What makes a dealer a retailer?
In Massachusettes, a retailer is the tax collector at the point of sale.
Thank you for listening....
Denis....AKA.....bikenut.

JSsson

Somebody listed the largest wholesale dealers in one of the responses to this thread, and Spectrum is one of them.

I would guess that some dealers only do wholesale only because they don't have the time or patience to answer questions that a collector may ask. It also seems that wholesale transactions happen much more faster than retail transactions.

WTCG

Many dealers don't deal with the public for several reasons, whether it be not wanting to spend time answering questions, worrying about returns, or tax issues that may arise. At least 90% of my business is wholesale, and wholesale transactions are absolutely easier than retail transactions.

Partially quoting Laura's statement on Spectrum, I believe they actually did more than $50,000,000 last year in business. Once upon a time I mildly considered going to work for Spectrum.

Johnscoin

WTCG...only mildly?
Spectrum isn't a crack-out company, the Spectrum wholesale division is just that, a wholesale division. It is the parent division of Bowers and Merena, Teletrade, NACT (the retail division-so yes they do sell retail), and A-Mark Precious Metals, the largest bullion dealer in the country. Spectrum is owned by Escala (formerly Greg Manning Auctions, Inc), and is a publically traded company on the NASDAQ (ESCL). It is safe to say that they are one of the largest wholesalers in the country. the retail division of Spectrum focuses on just that, retail, as most wholesalers cannot sell retail due to tax implications. However, I'd think and hope that your reception with Spectrum would be much better now than what it was in the past. Dale Larsen is a great guy, and is always friendly to everyone. Their website is kingofcash.com.

morgannut2

I thought Escala (ESCL) was just a Spanish Company selling stamps to the European public with a small percent of their business involved in US coin wholesale operations--Hmm