What are the diagnostics of a fake Trade Dollar?

Millertime

I received my first Trade Dollar (1877-S) and I thought I would try to find out the markers of a fake trade dollar. I don't have any reason to question the authenticity of mine it's just an exercise to become familiar with what I should look for on fakes. I came across this article in Coin World that disturbs me. It mentions 2 small holes in the bun of the hair that can be used to determine fakes, however in this thread about Trade Dollars I can see the 2 small holes in the bun that the Coin World article mentions but everyone in that thread feels the Trade Dollar is authentic. Are the holes really a sign of fakes or not and what other things can you look for to determine fakes.

Thanks,
Millertime

mirabela

There are so many different fakes, they all have different diagnostics. The bad ones are easy to pin by their weird color, grainy looking surfaces, irregular denticles, wirey edges, strange sound, bad weight, slightly incorrect diameter, etc.

relayer

Item Location: China

Hyperion

I take it you've done the weight, size measurements ?
I got on which was like 60% of the weight it should have been. ppal got my moneyback !

MORGANHUNTER2

We need pics....

Millertime

It feels and looks right so if by any chance it was fake it would be a quality fake. Like I said I don't have any reason to doubt the one I have but the marker (holes in the hair bun) mentioned in the Coin World article does make me wonder. I'll try to get a picture of mine later tonight but here's a picture of ajia's (I hope it's ok to use it). Mine has similar wear and a little bit more luster but both ajia's and mine have those 2 holes in the bun of the the hair that the coin world article says is a characteristic of counterfeit trade dollars.



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flaminio

<< <i>I thought I would try to find out the markers of a fake trade dollar. >>

Easy. It's not in a slab.

Millertime

So no one has responded to the remarks about the Coin World article. Is the article right?

Millertime

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>I thought I would try to find out the markers of a fake trade dollar. >>

Easy. It's not in a slab. >>




Not always

I just got 2 from our resident expert (for our Dansco 7070) and feel very comfortable that he could spot counterfeits and didn't pawn them off on me...and both are raw (with chopmarks)

Artist

Be leary of the ones dated before 1873.

lclugza

Also one dated after 1878 that has a mintmark under the eagle is probably a fake. Also the vast majority of New Orleans mint trade dollars, of any date, are phony.

busco69

I always look for a sharp strike ,plus weight them ,but some day the fakes will be so good that a slab might not matter.

Conder101

Millertime, the bun behind Liberty's head is made up of two loops of hair divided by a ribbon. As such there would be a depression in the center of each loop. On the pieces referenced in the Coin World article those depressions extend all the way down to the level of the field creating two "holes". But both on the images from their article and the image from this and the other thread, the images are not good enough or large enough, to see if the depressions in the hair bun go down and make "holes". The diagnostic of holes in the hair bun would also only be valid for that particular counterfeiter's product, and only until he makes new dies or molds. Every counterfeiters product is going to have different diagnostics. So if you find one thing that has been shown to be a counterfeit diagnostic you know it's a fake. BUT, if you don't see that feature it DOES NOT mean for sure that it is real. It could still be a fake from a different source.

keoj

These are the diagnostics that I look for:

- Is the type I and II obverse and reverse correct for the year: TYpe I obverses from 73 to 76, Type II obverses from 76 to 85, Type I reverse from 73 to 76, Type II reverse from 75 to 86. There are no such varieties as a Type II/I.
- Is the mintmark consistent with the year (ie there is no Type II/II 76-CC...there are Type II/II 76 and 76-s's). There are many of these that exist and don't come easy unless you know the series well. Eaxmple, for 77 business strikes, generally the stars are weak around Miss Liberties head. Or, 76 Type I/I's don't have a perod after FINE.
- For a Type I and Type II obverses and reverses, there are certain die characteristics that one should look for. Such as, the neck feathers on the left side are not contiguous on Type I reverses and they are on Type II's. Or the scroll ends point down on Type II obverses and point left on Type I's.
- I look at denticles to make sure they look okay and not exagerated
- If the coin is raw, I'll look at the reads


This is just an example of why one should avoid a raw trade dollar on ebay unless you know the series.

It's hard to make a determination via a picture but the coin looks real to me. Some of these copies and fakes can be VERY deceptive.

keoj