Doesn't this coin represent all that is wrong with the current state of TPG?
ColonialCoinUnion
Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭
Its fantastic and original, and as a result it is in an MS63 holder. IMO, once it is dipped and enhanced, it is virtually guaranteed to be upgraded.
Don't we need a 'bump' for originaility? Or is it the intention of the services to see all coins enhanced over time?
Don't we need a 'bump' for originaility? Or is it the intention of the services to see all coins enhanced over time?
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A coin from 1803 should not be white or even near white really.....
tamper with that wonderful 03?
Camelot
<< <i> IMO, once it is dipped and enhanced, it is virtually guaranteed to be upgraded. >>
Not always. Many times that old original toning is hiding hairline scratches and other evidence of an old cleaning. Dipping can lower the grade so let the dipper beware.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Why would you dip this coin? It is sweet the way it is...... >>
I wouldn't. And you wouldn't. And a lot of other collectors wouldn't. But I suspect that the same dealer mentality that dipped this original and beautiful Norweb Trade Dollar (AND was financially rewarded for it!) would dip their mother if they thought she'd upgrade.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
That trade dollar that CCU linked to - what a shame.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
1878'CC' Choice Brilliant Uncirculated
well on the way to Gem. Smooth frosty fields and meticulous devices are bathed in softly luminous clear gold and lavender of the greatest delicacy and beauty. Here is an unusually high quality example of the ever-desirable final Carson City date of this short-lived international trade coin. It can be safely said that this exciting near-Gem radiates the most breath-taking visual appeal that can be easily imagined. Finding another example of the date that even approximates this coin's appeal would be a task beyond the capability of even the most lavishly funded collector in today's condition- conscious numismatic market. Locating a finer piece would be an even more impossible achievement.
I'm not positive, but I think that might be sarcasm oozing out all over the place -
JK, did you do that?
with this monster....you may go to hell for it.
<< <i>By the way, what do they dip them in? >>
Acetone is one you can use. Use it on some old dirty Mercs once. Did a nice job giving them a shine but it was obvious they were dipped.
They now sit in an envelope near a heat source attempting to tone them.
Positive BST: WhiteThunder (x2), Ajaan, onefasttalon, mirabela, Wizard1, cucamongacoin, mccardguy1
Negative BST: NONE!
A dealer friend of mine buys an old collection. THis collection has several killer pieces, that have been off the market since the early nineties.
It has a beautiful 1854 arrows half in it. He cracks it from the PCGS 64 holder dips it. Sends it in, comes back 64. Cracks and redips, and sends it in again. Back in a 64. Cracks the third time and redips it. It comes back at pcgs 64. Still convinced it is a 65 and has it priced that way.
He didn't blink an eye trying for the upgrade and the nice price jump.
I pray nothing happens to that lovely dollar.
<< <i>Doesn't this coin represent all that is wrong with the current state of TPG? >>
I have not a clue whether that coin is properly graded. I wonder how many forum members have experience grading bust dollars at MS63 and higher?
How would that coin fare in the market if dipped white? Don't know the bust dollar market. Purists might shun it. Maybe that's why it was not dipped.
One thing to consider is that dealers will offer what sells. If it is easier and more profitable to sell dipped coins than original ones, the coins will be dipped. Look at the seated material on the market, especially dimes and quaters. Lots of white shiny coins. If that is what sells, that is what you will see in the market place.
CG
2) Dipping would make that coin look worse (toning is too deep to be removed).
3) Toned coins grade higher than untoned coins (toning hides flaws).
Here is the description of the coin. I'll let you all decide whether I think it's cleaned, retoned, etc. Those who know me and my descriptions know I HATE hairlines and mention them everytime I see any. You'll note the absence of the word in this description -- look how many other early dollar descriptions I write that never mention the word "hairlines."
1803 BB-252, B-5. Rarity-3. MS-63 (NGC).
A superlative and beautiful specimen, unabashedly called "the finest known of this variety" in the 1984 Amon Carter sale. Thorough and dramatic cartwheel lustre spins intensely around both obverse and reverse, while the surfaces are elegantly toned in a pleasing mélange of gold with green and pale blue highlights over light silver gray surfaces. The devices are frosty and the mint bloom in the fields is intense. The strike is very good for the date, which rarely comes struck as full as some other dates in this series. The obverse is especially sharp, with each star showing a center peak and complete radials. Only tiny scattered marks are seen, none large enough to be useful as an identifier and certainly none is distracting. The visual appeal is impeccable.
Though not singled out for a mention in the Bowers Encyclopedia, undoubtedly an accidental omission since other Amon Carter coins are cited and the piece is described as "the finest known of the variety" in a bold headline in that sale, this piece appears as fine or finer than any of those pieces mentioned. The list is led by two NGC MS-63s that appear to be the same coin, then a few raw MS-60 pieces, two AUs sold in 1955 and 1970, and the EF Bolender coin. The Cardinal Collection lacked this variety, but another 1803 Small 3 (BB-254) graded MS-63 (PCGS) brought $64,400. This piece, just as beautiful as when it was included in the magnificent Bust dollar collection of Amon Carter, has been off the market for over two decades and returns in a day when Bust dollar collecting has undergone a renaissance of interest and appreciation. If anyone was to list the all-time greatest early dollar collections ever formed, the Carter collection would have to be included. Today, anyone intent on building a cabinet of similar quality should view and seriously consider this impressively beautiful dollar.
NGC Census (all varieties): 5; 2 finer (MS-64).
From the New York Connoisseur's Collection. Previously from Stack's sale of the Amon Carter Collection, January 1984, Lot 236. The original lot ticket accompanies this lot.
CCU's comment in the title is correct in more ways than he perhaps even knows!
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>NGC Census (all varieties): 5; 2 finer (MS-64).! >>
"Finer," of course, refers strictly to the number on the slab. I doubt many advanced collectors would consider one of these 64s "finer" than the 63 shown here, especially if the 64s have been messed with or had less attractive color.
I believe that CCU has just issued a warning to all who might think a higher grade will result if the coin is dipped. He will maim, destroy and maybe even tongue-lash the upgrader who would try.
I also viewed this coin raw, and the luster is amazing. The image does not do the coin justice. The only caveat I have with the grade, is that a purist, like roadrunner, could see some rub on the face and forehead. But if the coin were in a PCGS 58 holder, it would still bring the same dollars from an early bust enthusiast.
<< <i>The only caveat I have with the grade, is that a purist, like roadrunner, could see some rub on the face and forehead. >>
Party pooper.
Not sure if I understand you question....The coin was graded ms63.The only reason to break it out of the holder is if the holder was damaged or not air tight.There is a consenus of an alcohol bath as not actually being dipping to cleanse any germ factor.Aside from that whatever dipping or enhancement might alter the inegrity or appeal of the coin........JMO............