WHY is the Darkside sooooo different?

MrEureka · November 5, 2005 8:19AM

We all know that the Darkside is nothing like the Lightside, but WHY? Isn't human nature the same wherever you go?

spinaker2000 · November 5, 2005 8:25AM

This should get interesting!!

cosmicdebris · November 5, 2005 8:28AM

I'm Swiss

ajaan · November 5, 2005 8:33AM

<< This should get interesting!! >>

What do mean by THAT spinaker???? Some kind of snide remark?

spinaker2000 · November 5, 2005 8:35AM

Yep!!

I will add this thought, since I had one, We darksiders have so much material to choose from and individual interest that we are rarely in competition with each other. This keeps the hobby civilized, except for Ajaan!!!

1jester · November 5, 2005 8:42AM

<< Yep!!

I will add this thought, since I had one, We darksiders have so much material to choose from and individual interest that we are rarely in competition with each other. This keeps the hobby civilized, except for Ajaan!!!

>>

Well, you can't ask for everything!

Aethelred · November 5, 2005 9:13AM

<< 

<< This should get interesting!! >>

What do mean by THAT spinaker???? Some kind of snide remark? >>

Spinaker is the most sober-minded drunk I know, I really think you should take that back!

coinkat · November 5, 2005 9:15AM

Good question with no clear and short answer.

I pefer Darkside coins for many reasons... there is something to be said for World History and the designs of other coinage. Every country has a story to tell and usually its coinage is symbolic of its history. Just look at the German States commems as well as those from the days of the Wiemar Republic. Commems from Austria, the Victorian Gothic Crown and Florin from England, 20th century Italian coins have very cool designs... there is so much to choose from that it is nearly impossible to get burned out or bored.

ajaan · November 5, 2005 9:19AM

<< Spinaker is the most sober-minded drunk I know, I really think you should take that back! >>

When he sobers up, I will.

Seriously now. I think when you deal or collect US coins there is so much money involved, tempers can get high and some people are easily offended. I have met about a half a dozen, that's 6 for you aethelred, members here and they are as nice in person as they are on this forum.

AuldFartte · November 5, 2005 9:20AM

Well, for one thing most of the folks here on the DARKSIDE are not into the "my-coin-is-better-than-your-coin" mentality that you find so often on the liteside. As said earlier, we have a huge variety of coins to look at here when the collectors show us thier newest purchases.

Besides, liteside coins are the same old boring stuff all the time, so I'd guess it makes the litesiders a bit antagonistic. You'd be a bit hostile, too, if you had to look at pages of Lincoln cents or Morgan dollars all damned day

Aethelred · November 5, 2005 9:25AM

To try to answer this question, I think there are several reasons the Darkside is different.

1. For the most part we seem to be civil with each other and respect what each other are working on. A collector of French coins will tend not to think of a person who collects German coins as an idiot. I think many Lightsiders get so into what they are doing (perhaps because of the financial stake involved), that they come to see anyone who is interested in something else as less of a collector.

2. Darksiders tend to be more involved in history and have a wider world view.

3. Because we know that we are a small minority, we tend to form closer ties to other collectors who share our interest.

lordmarcovan · November 5, 2005 9:28AM

Lightside is a lake.

Darkside is a big ocean- there is room for everyone to swim around, and even discover some previously-unrecognized treasures without having to use a microscope to squint at tiny die varieties.

JamminJ · November 5, 2005 9:34AM

They are becoming more alike with each passing day.

coinkat · November 5, 2005 10:10AM

JamminJ:

I tend to think you have a point there... but there is a different mentality that is part of the darkside.

Fairlaneman · November 5, 2005 10:25AM

Geez is a person who enjoys both a semi uncivil goon that has no real direction with collecting ?

Personally I like both sides. The people, the coins, the stories, the help.

Ken

sellsatan · November 5, 2005 11:06AM

<< 1. For the most part we seem to be civil with each other and respect what each other are working on. A collector of French coins will tend not to think of a person who collects German coins as an idiot. I think many Lightsiders get so into what they are doing (perhaps because of the financial stake involved), that they come to see anyone who is interested in something else as less of a collector. >>

<< 2. Darksiders tend to be more involved in history and have a wider world view. >>

<< 3. Because we know that we are a small minority, we tend to form closer ties to other collectors who share our interest. >>

I think the dead one nailed this. I'm still wet behind the ears when it comes to the dark side, but from where I stand it's a bit like this: lightsiders are Star Trek fans. Darksiders are not so easily entertained. More flair, humor, subtlety and passion is required, so they're fans of Doctor Who.

I will say this: people more frequently participate in threads here, contibute information on a deeper level and hardly ever flame each other (as a matter of fact I've been lurking here since March and have yet to see it happen). Posts stay at the top longer, people really ARE more civil here and there's sooooo much more beautiful and interesting material to look at.

Note: the preceding comments were in no way meant to offend Star Trek fans. I'm watching TNG right now.

Edited to add: Cool Doctor Who link

Aethelred · November 5, 2005 11:21AM

I'll admit that I like Dr. Who.

wybrit · November 5, 2005 11:24AM

I'll admit that I like Dr. Who.

Ditto.

farthing · November 5, 2005 12:18PM

Who doesn't?

secondrepublic · November 5, 2005 12:59PM

I don't. Could never get into it.

But I do like the darkside... yes I do.

worldcoinguy · November 5, 2005 1:26PM

<< To try to answer this question, I think there are several reasons the Darkside is different.

1. For the most part we seem to be civil with each other and respect what each other are working on. A collector of French coins will tend not to think of a person who collects German coins as an idiot. I think many Lightsiders get so into what they are doing (perhaps because of the financial stake involved), that they come to see anyone who is interested in something else as less of a collector.

2. Darksiders tend to be more involved in history and have a wider world view.

3. Because we know that we are a small minority, we tend to form closer ties to other collectors who share our interest. >>

These are all good points. Personally, I lived exclusively in the lightside for many years. However, the lightside brings thoughts of upgrades, registry points, crack outs, misc to mind. I see needless competition every waking hour of the day....why should I come home and unwind for a few minutes everyday listening to the samething. Frankly, I enjoy the variety and stories on the darkside. I am fully aware of the fact that world coins have many of the same problems. However, I feel more like an Indiana Jones searching through the vast ocean of darkside material (as lordmarcovan put it), and the search and discovery for me is half the fun of this hobby.

worldcoinguy · November 5, 2005 1:27PM

Double post....sorry.

MrEureka · November 5, 2005 1:36PM

I feel more like an Indiana Jones searching through the vast ocean of darkside material (as lordmarcovan put it), and the search and discovery for me is half the fun of this hobby.

WCG - Why can't you do that on the Lightside?

worldcoinguy · November 5, 2005 1:56PM

You bring up a good point. Lightside......medals....postcards....baseball cards......I suppose any of these ares provide furtile grounds for that rewarding search. When I was young, I would fall asleep with the old Redbook in my hands dreaming about the possibilities. With most of those denomination, facts, and figures in my head, it just does not have the same pull anymore. I cant say why, or exactly when I started to lose interest. In fact, I have quite a few US modern commemoratives in PCGS holders, and I am trying to decide their future.

I now find more enjoyment talking with the darkside dealers who I have access to in the Ohio area, reading postings on this board, and pouring though my Krause 1600-1700, 1700-1800, and 1800-present studying coins. Simply put - I have alot to learn about the dark side, and this is what I find to be the most fun about the hobby.

MrEureka · November 5, 2005 3:06PM

Simply put - I have alot to learn about the dark side, and this is what I find to be the most fun about the hobby.

Absolutely! But there's plenty to learn on the Lightside as well. What's the difference?

theboz11 · November 5, 2005 5:39PM

When you post a picture of a item over here, People don't tell you to take the piece of crap down because the poster has a better one to post.

Lightsider are New York taxidrivers Who collect spare change and scream at the patrons, Darksiders are Art Gallery owners with the same love of art as thier clients.

I think I have seen all the Dr. Who Adventures several times.

Lightside

1jester · November 5, 2005 5:45PM

<< I'll admit that I like Dr. Who.

Ditto. >>

Ditto too.

Sylvestius · November 5, 2005 5:54PM

History.

BCE to Present versus 1792/3 to present.

All the countries bar one versus just the one exempted from the latter.

That said I remember only 5 years ago, i in my 'liteside' mentality (i.e British), though of US coins as foreign and equated them on no different terms that i would French, Spanish or Egyptian. It was foreign and not British and thus of no interest to me.

So i don't think this 'liteside' phenomenon equates to merely US members, us Brits can be just as stuck up about it. Luckily i got the internet and i opened my eyes to the bigger picture. The ignorance and safe play pen went (as did my defensive behaviour to defend my little patch of property) and i stepped out into the real world. The real world is alot bigger and thus there's less inclination to fight to defend your property and area but rather more the problem of having to scour the world for many hours to meet anyone who's doing anything remotely related to your own collection.

That is the difference.

Sylvestius · November 5, 2005 5:59PM

Another question about the liteside competative ego (LCO)

Is there more vehement competition between say, Morgan Dollar collectors versus Lincoln cent collectors? (i.e my denomination is better than yours), or more between one group of collectors, i.e just Morgan dollar collectors (you're going about collecting these things the wrong way... how foolish of you).

Thoughts?

gxseries · November 5, 2005 9:47PM

I don't understand the question. It is too confusing.

Are we comparing US coins against the rest of the world? This in my opinion is not a fair question, if not, totally unanswerable. Firstly, I think it is important to note the origins of coins. No matter how we want to disagree upon history, there is one thing almost everyone should agree on, that is the Europeans that revolutionized the coinage process, like how coins should be minted, why coins are circular, etc.

One should not forget that US is, or rather was made up of immigrations from Europe and other parts of the world!!! I mean, if there is a need of cash, or such coins, these technologies had to be "imported" or "copied" from the Europeans. Design-wise, the early US coinages were done by European descents, whom typically uses portrait images on one side of the coins, and a grand theme on the reverse. (apologizes if the generalization is very wrong)

I must say that it is during the First World War that most countries realized that they couldn't afford a monarchy system or needed a new revolution system and hence you see the dying of portrait images. Instead you get to see more "revolutnized" images, such as the Soviet "hammer and sickle", the French "Bonpour", the German Fasists logo etc. This reflected upon what a nation wanted, and most probably their work place, pride, etc. Hence overtime, you don't get too see coins with a person's face. Taking the example of the new Euro coinage, the most you might get "human" image is some renicassance (sorry can't spell) arts but a grand portrait? No, unless it's a commemorative coin.

Perhaps coinage wise, the only similar theme of such traditional style would be the British colonies and the US coinage - I mean, there is a portrait of the Queen and the Presidents!!! Similiar? I say this is done in the past!

Overall, I guess the wars caused the rest of the world a thought of how they should be designed and possibly not as "fascist" or "imperialist". Hence you get quite a fair bit of "neutral" designs, which may feature livings things to architures...

Just my thought... sorry a bit of rambling in here.

Sylvestius · November 5, 2005 9:59PM

Two things;

Firstly gx i'd like to back up one of your points, the point that Europeans influenced US coin designs. Very, very true... only have to look at the Mercury dime to see that. Not to mention the most American of all the US coinage, the Morgan Dollar was designed by... wait for it... a Brit. Damn those British interferring busy bodies!

But secondly you have failed to see one point that unfortunately is not always misable. You get this with people from all countries not just the US so i'm not stigmatising here. But with regards to the particular question under discussion about dedicated liteside (in US terms) only collectors. There are some there that think US coins are the be all and end all and are totally removed and on a totally different (and better) level to all the foreign trash produced by every other country. These few narrow minded folk will go out of their way to stay 'pure' and 'true' to their hobby by refusing to accept anything that isn't minted by the godd old US of A. Not only that but they'll openly shun most of the stuff minted by the US too as not being 'real' money... so everything prior to 1793, everything after 1965, trade dollars and anything not silver or gold is just not an option. And quite probablyy everything that grades under MS65.

In my opinion it's they're loss...

nicholasz219 · November 6, 2005 12:33AM

I think that the question is mostly about the kind of people who find themselves attracted to the hobby in the first place. I think that almost everyone in this forum will admit to collecting something (even if not coins) at a young age, and either eventually moving into coins or starting with coins and eventually moving into other related fields.

For cryin' out loud, I still have my rock collection. Even worse, I have a hard time disposing of it. Try explaining to your wife why you need to keep rocks of all things.

But I think that most of the wonderful people that I have come into contact with here in this forum and in my local coin club are just fascinated at a primal level (or childlike level) with the things they are interested in such as coins. When you translate that wonder into everyday dealings with other people through clubs or email or forums like ours, you have a bunch of very happy people who are just thrilled that they found this hobby, these people and this love of life. People who do not share the same love or wonder kind of look at you like you are on drugs almost, because they just don't get how much you love this. My Mom and former wife were happy for me, just could not quite make that same connection.

On the flip side, I think a lot of liteside collectors start out the same way. I know I did. I love looking through rolls of change, filling Whitman folders and finding a sweet toned Washington quarter for like $10. I still collect liteside from change, and still fill my Whitman folders and still look out for bargains when it comes to filling my toned collection. What I do not do is look at listings for coins that just depress me because they are beautiful but horrendously expensive. Unless I go in to work tomorrow and get a $100K raise, there is no way I can collect even stuff I collected ten years ago these days. I think even dealers know that in order to survive they must be able to carry and sell high end US coins and that is part and parcel of the neglect of world coins. I happen to know one dealer who loves world coins, but can not survive on my purchases and the purchases of the few other world coin collectors who actually make it into his shop. Thank God for the internet honestly because then at least dealers don't have to pay for floorspace.

I think that is why there is such a definite difference between people who collect lite and dark. The only exceptions to that rule being mostly children who collect things out of change and what they can afford. To them their collection of UNC Lincoln cents is the most valuable thing in the world. Same thing for the people who are truly wealthy who can really enjoy the beauty of what they are buying because those really crazy prices happen to fall within their means. I hate to think of me hating those people out of sheer jealousy and I would have a hard time thinking that any member in here would be spiteful towards a richer person just out of greed or jealousy. I honestly think that there are a lot of US collectors out there who really enjoy what they are doing, but because they just collect mostly common things, they just don't get the attention which is primarily focused on crazy auction results. Did you see the results for the Ford XII sale by Stack's? $600K for COLONIAL MASSACHUSETTS PIECES!!!!!

I dunno. Sorry if I am being long winded, but I was thinking a lot about this and since I still fill my Whitman folders regularly, I wondered what made different.

US Link 1

Russian Link 1

Which of the above is more attractive to the person who can afford $20 a week?

Thanks,

Nick

SYRACUSIAN · November 6, 2005 1:10AM

3. Because we know that we are a small minority, we tend to form closer ties to other collectors who share our interest.

That's why basically.For me anyway.It's not about showing off coins, {I even show off my business' work

}, it's about the ties with people. I might login for hours and not post a word, only exchange PMs. To the extent, that I consider it as an essential daily therapy.

ksteelheader · November 6, 2005 2:50AM

<< I'm Swiss

>>

Swiss/German here!

cosmicdebris · November 6, 2005 3:09AM

<< 

<< I'm Swiss

>>

Swiss/German here!

>>

Actually I am not Swiss, it was a reference to THIS

sellsatan · November 6, 2005 3:23AM

<< We all know that the Darkside is nothing like the Lightside, but WHY? Isn't human nature the same wherever you go? >>

- MrEureka

<< I don't understand the question. It is too confusing. >>

- gxseries

I could be wrong (I often am), but I think MrEureka is asking what accounts for the noted difference in demeanor on the darkside forum. It seems to me that this question is not directly about the type of material people collect, but why the collectors of darkside material tend to behave and interact differently.

There have been many good points made in this thread about the differences between light and darkside collectors and the big one that keeps coming up is the competitive factor. For the record, I guess you'd have to call me a double agent (there appear to be many of us here). The bulk of my collection is lightside and I have no plans of changing that. I do want to point out that while there is a sizable group of competitive collectors that occasionally act in an abrasive manner on the lightside forum, many of the participants over there are very similar to most of you. They have a genuine love of the hobby. They are deeply interested in history (and in order to truly understand the history of US coinage you MUST have a good grasp of world history, specifically US relations with Britain, Spain and France). The only real difference between light and dark for the vast majority of CU forum members is the type of material they happen to collect.

sellsatan · November 6, 2005 3:42AM

<< Another question about the liteside competative ego (LCO) >>

<< Is there more vehement competition between say, Morgan Dollar collectors versus Lincoln cent collectors? (i.e my denomination is better than yours), or more between one group of collectors, i.e just Morgan dollar collectors (you're going about collecting these things the wrong way... how foolish of you). >>

<< Thoughts? >>

- Sylvestius

There are folks on the lightside that are in LOVE with their chosen series and as a result tout it about as the best possible choice of material to collect. Here and there I have read threads where people knock on somebody else's chosen series or collection interest because it isn't their own (a Rolling Stones quote come to mind: "...but he can't be a man because he does not smoke the same cigarettes as me."), but this is almost universally done in fun. There are, however, a goodly amount of folks over there who share an open disdain for "modern crap."

1jester · November 6, 2005 4:31AM

All Liteside is "modern crap"!!

I think the Darkside offers much more value for the money across the board. If I tried to collect Liteside, I'd simply be priced out of the market. Of course, the Darkside offers such a more vast range of coins, history, dates, artwork, etc etc ad inf. That also makes it more fun.

Personally I haven't bought a coin in about 2 years, but I'd say that I still collect Liteside, to some extent. I love coins. I'll always be a collector, active or not.

wybrit · November 6, 2005 4:48AM

1jester, sylvestius and jamminj pretty much sum it up.

There are some things to learn browsing the US Coin forum, but mostly technical information like grades, ebay problems, etc.
On this forum, in addition to history, you learn from others about coins from other countries where few or no definitive references actually exist.

a2labmom · November 6, 2005 5:20AM

not sure if it was mentioned or not yet (manily because I'm being lazy about reading), but one of the great things about the Darkside is the people on this board. They are the bestest.

cladking · November 6, 2005 6:24AM

US coins are great and both the cause and result of a great country. Collecting them
is also great and can be tremendous fun and this is especially true for Americans and
those with an interesrt in things American.

But there are some obvious pitfall in collecting liteside coins from manipulation to con-
stantly changing mainstream and standards. There is tremendous demand which will
not stay focused but tends to move from one area to another. Many people see the
increased competition in US coins as vulgar or at least a detriment to the enjoyment of
collecting and large numbers end up on the darkside.

In world coins there is an entire universe of coins to choose from rather than a mere
230 year era in part of a single continent. For whatever reason one collects at all, he
is likely to find a close manisfestation in a darkside coin. If you're interested in coins
that saw extensive circulation you can look at some of the 17th century British silver.
If you prefer coins that saw very brief but near universal circulation then there's much
of the 20th century African coinages. Whether one seeks age, design, intricasy, his-
tory, or nearly anything else it exists on the darkside in spades.

Couple the sense of adventure, the fact that most darksiders have more experience,
and left the liteside for similar reasons and it's hardly surprising that there is more un-
ity and shared goals here. There is even more general agreement that modern is crap
though most are too polite to point it out.

ozzysdad · November 6, 2005 6:38AM

<< Well, for one thing most of the folks here on the DARKSIDE are not into the "my-coin-is-better-than-your-coin" mentality that you find so often on the liteside. As said earlier, we have a huge variety of coins to look at here when the collectors show us thier newest purchases.

Besides, liteside coins are the same old boring stuff all the time, so I'd guess it makes the litesiders a bit antagonistic. You'd be a bit hostile, too, if you had to look at pages of Lincoln cents or Morgan dollars all damned day

>>

What you said.............. You hit the nail TDC and brought out a whole lot of excellent observation point's..... "Is it NT or AT"..... I have decided to get into the world coin's. Far more varitey, There are still far more prettier coin's out there to be had. And your right, I've gotten tired of looking at the same "Modern Crap"..... Forgot to mention "Darksider's are good people" . You can learn from this forum.

1jester · November 6, 2005 6:42AM

Welcome home, brother!!!

cladking · November 6, 2005 7:05AM

<< Far more varitey, There are still far more prettier coin's out there to be had. And your right, I've gotten tired of looking at the same "Modern Crap"..... Forgot to mention "Darksider's are good people" . You can learn from this forum.

>>

Ya can't get away from the modern crap anywhere, though. There's a lot more of it
on the darkside and there are numerous regular issues which are rare because they
were destroyed in circulation and subsequent meltings.

The darkside is the best place for moderns since there are also many fantastic designs
and so very many series.

RedTiger · November 6, 2005 8:00AM

<< Simply put - I have alot to learn about the dark side, and this is what I find to be the most fun about the hobby.

Absolutely! But there's plenty to learn on the Lightside as well. What's the difference? >>

A couple come to mind: about 40% of the U. S. numismatic dollar volume is in Morgan dollars, another 25% of the total numismatic trading volume is in gold, with most of that in $20 Saints. Nothing so dominates the darkside numismatic landscape. There is no registry madness on the darkside. There is no equivalent of the so-called-wannabe dealers, and the wannabe bashers on the darkside (at least none that I have heard of). There are very few coins worth a million USD on the darkside, vs. what seems to be a dozen new million dollar value coins on the light side at every major auction. There is no darkside equivalent to the 1909 S VDB cent with a huge surviving population, no bullion value, and yet a four figure price tag in most grades.

There are many old coins in relatively high grade available to darksiders. Nice high grade U. S. coins over 200 years old usually cost as much as a car, some as much as a house. For many collectible coins, dealer margins and spreads seem to be higher on the darkside. There is no Certified Coin Exchange or Bluesheet for the darkside. The market is thinner, so dealers have to price accordingly. There are not as many short-term flippers on the darkside. Very, very few crack out artists. There are probably some darkside coin doctors, but I would wager that most of the good coin doctors practice their dark arts on the light side where the money is to be made.

I'm sure there are more that I will think of later.

Ricke · November 6, 2005 9:04AM

I think it's easier for people to trick themselves into thinking they are experts in coins when they see so many coins of the same designs. If you collect world coins, it doesn't take very long to know that there is a whole lot of stuff you've never even seen, let alone consider yourself an 'expert' on. Maybe the result of that is less personal ego in general.

coinpictures · November 6, 2005 9:41AM

Speaking strictly for myself, with LightSide it feels like there are no more "frontiers to be conquered." It's all been done and all been found. LightSide has been reduced to a mad slab-crackout-resubmit-crossover game in search of a registry point or two, or maybe a hunt for VAMs. There's not a LightSide coin that I'm going to ever find that people will not have seen before, or have one in better grade.

Not so with DarkSide. The limits are endless. I always love seeing pics here of coins (both designs and in levels of preservation) that I've never seen before. I can still stumble across DarkSide coins on a regular basis that make me go "Ooh!" and "Ahh!" Better yet, many of them I can actually afford.

The DarkSide lessons on history and geography never end. I already know all the U.S. state capitals...

With DarkSide, I can buy 19th-century proofs for less than $100. I can buy mint state coins from the 1700s for less than $100... from the 1800s for less than $10. You can find find 17th-19th century coins with mintages less than 50,000 and not break the bank. I always wonder things like "Out of the 20,000 coins originally minted, how many can possibly be left after 150 years?"

You simply cannot do this with LightSide material.

Museum-quality specimens can be obtained for pennies on the dollar compared to LightSide.

It's just infinitely more rewarding in just about every aspect. The only potential downside is that DarkSide material is not as liquid as LightSide when you want or need to sell. That's for my heirs to worry about, not me.

RedTiger · November 6, 2005 12:24PM

<< ...

CoinPictures.Com, a gallery of worldwide classics.

>>

I spend some time on the gallery site. I have a suggestion that you can accept or reject. Your coin alphabet is almost complete. Seems like an easy enough task to add coins to fill in the rest of the alphabet (K, O, X, Y Z). Well "X" is sort of difficult, and you might have to use you imagination for that one, but the rest look like they would be relatively easy to find.

WHY is the Darkside sooooo different?

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