When does a collector of Moderns switch to Classics?
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
I guess I hit a button by mistake, so here's the text:
When I first started collecting, at age 12, I put the circulated coins into Whitman folders, and bought perhaps a coin a week at the local retail store.
Also, I had my dad look for buffalo nickels and indian head cents in his business office.
But I never sprang for the unc coins, or any high end lincolns, lib nickels, buffalos, or indians. My 14th B day present was a 1909-SVDB raw, graded AU by the dealer.
When I started buying more expensive coins, in 1992, there was no Modern craze, that I knew of, so I went back to the series I was familiar with. And today, have gone to the classics(about 5 years ago)
I am curious if the very avid Modern collectors of today, spending serious dollars on MS/Proof 69 and 70's were ever collectors of the older series, or did they start their collections with highend coins dated after 1964?
Either way, there will be a movement by many of the new collectors to the older series. Perhaps only type, but they will have to experience the thrill of a 200 year old coin in AU or better.
When I first started collecting, at age 12, I put the circulated coins into Whitman folders, and bought perhaps a coin a week at the local retail store.
Also, I had my dad look for buffalo nickels and indian head cents in his business office.
But I never sprang for the unc coins, or any high end lincolns, lib nickels, buffalos, or indians. My 14th B day present was a 1909-SVDB raw, graded AU by the dealer.
When I started buying more expensive coins, in 1992, there was no Modern craze, that I knew of, so I went back to the series I was familiar with. And today, have gone to the classics(about 5 years ago)
I am curious if the very avid Modern collectors of today, spending serious dollars on MS/Proof 69 and 70's were ever collectors of the older series, or did they start their collections with highend coins dated after 1964?
Either way, there will be a movement by many of the new collectors to the older series. Perhaps only type, but they will have to experience the thrill of a 200 year old coin in AU or better.
TahoeDale
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I completed my 1950-present cameo proof collection a couple of years ago. Upgrades to my Registry sets became few and far between (and very expensive).
I decided to collect a new series, as yet fully decided. But I have picked up a number of coins from the 1800's to try to spark an interest. So far I have several cameo proofs as I am most comfortable in that area, but am approaching it with an open mind. I know the series I don't like - I just have to find a series I am willing to put some energy into.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Russ, with an average of over 30 posts per day, how do you even have time for your great coins?
I agree. The classics would overload your memory, and you would need 60 posts a day to communicate your additional thoughts. >>
Russ, NCNE
about 1960. I was distaught at being born in an era that there were huge numbers of
collectors scouring pocket change and removing the better coins before they ever got
to me. I was even more distraught in 1964 when the date freeze was announced. It
seemed like the end of the world when silver was removed from the coinage.
I sold my collections to concentrate on teenage concerns but continued to watch pocket
change. It was fascinating the way it was evolving and it was obvious in many ways
that other collectors weren't even looking at it. By 1972 I had a pretty good paying job
and caught a story in the newspaper that the mint was going to start rotating their stock.
This sounded like a starting gun to my ear and it was off to the races.
Many modern collectors have a fairly similar story and were "out in the trenches" all the
way back in the 1970 though they were very few and far between. I never even heard
of another collector until about 1978 and didn't meet one until the '80's. It was about
'94 before the first club started (except for PAK and another nickel group)(these groups
were not interested soley in moderns and most members only collected coins to '64).
There still aren't a lot of people paying lots of money for moderns. Most of the big money
coins have extremely low populations so relatively few collectors are buying such coins.
There have been very active (albeit very small) markets for these coins since the mid-'80's
and there was some trading well before this.
It seems unlikely that many newbies are spending a lot of money on these. Look at the
number of newbies spending large amounts on classics; it may be even fewer buying mod-
erns at high prices. Most newbies take many years to go from filling folders with circulating
coins to seeking keys and rarities. Many will switch to classics for the same reasons that
brought all of us to them and many will stick with moderns because these have their own
charms.
Apology is given. I didn't realize that you are a "proof" collector, for the most part, and that early classic proofs are beyond most collectors(including the undersigned) means.
You do have some great Kennedys, for which you are rightly proud.
peddling all the high rarified ga-ga grade pices of plastic with really enticing rarified labels inside these shangra-la coins
and when these collectors leave shangra-la they are extremely surprised as such
then they move to classical coinage be it biz strike or proof circ or ms as long as the coin has great eye appeal for the assigned grade and i might add only buying scarce good value classic coinage
now put that in your hat ot put that to music with the cords i have struck on here
Then in 1994 I started making some money and went back and upgraded and finished my Lincolns and Buffalos. At that time I found out about TPG'ing and started buying some slabbed Morgan’s and Walkers as well as Merc's. I happened to get a mailer from the US Mint that mentioned that they were selling bags of SBA$'s for $2,100 for bags of 2,000 coins. At those prices it seemed reasonable to learn how to grade high grade UNC. coins by going through them. I ended up searching more than 70,000 SBA's and getting the best of them slabbed by PCGS. Through my search I realized just how rare MS67-MS68 SBA's were and also noticed that many were poorly struck. I had heard about Full Step Jefferson’s and Full Band Merc's and applied the concept to SBA's with "Full Talons".
I saved and purchased all of the highest graded SBA's that I could find with special attention to the coins being fully struck with "Full Talons". In the mean time I lost interest in Morgan’s and Walkers. I have upgraded my Buffalo set to all XF-BU coins with the exception of a F-VF 1918/7 D (and no 1916/16). My Buffalos are all Full Horn (with the exception of the 1918/7). The Lincolns have also been completed in VF+ and both of the these circulated sets are in Dansco albums.
Lately I have moved into SMS coins in Cameo and now have a pretty nice Registry set. I also still have a few slabbed and unslabbed classics. I own one of only 6 Cameo Proof Walkers (the lowest graded, but a nice looking coin at PR64CAM).
So that is my story of "how I became a High Grade Modern Sap".
And finally I do peddle all the high rarified ga-ga grade pieces of plastic with really enticing rarified labels inside these shangra-la coins, if that makes me a rat a$$ hackers hawkers barkers carnival stooge then so be it. I do not make any apologies.
I began replacing my circulated coins with uncirculated in 1965, and eventually had nearly every coin minted from 1940 to date. I began ordering proof and mint sets from the Mint in 1968, and when commemoratives were resumed in 1982, I ordered those until the early 1990's, when it got to the point where it was cheaper to buy in the aftermarket. So in a sense, I've always been a collector of "modern" coins, but I also began to buy older type coins in the late '60's. I can remember buying nice AU Bust halves from the 1830's for around $12 apiece. My most complete classic set is half cents from 1800-1857, all circulated, and mostly raw. I like them because of the unusual denomination, low mintages, and they're still quite affordable in the higher circulated grades. I have nice mint state examples of all of the Seated and Barber denominations, and would like to acquire more of the scarcer Seated varieties, and mint state Bust coins.
Like Cladking, I've been around long enough to see some moderns become closer to the "classic" category. Future generations of collectors will appreciate the foresight of today's modern collectors to locate and preserve high grade mint state specimens. I exclude modern proofs, because I feel that they will always be common as dirt during our lifetimes.
Jim
<< <i>Lately I have moved into SMS coins in Cameo and now have a pretty nice Registry set. >>
Great set, DRG!
Russ, NCNE
"if you can find one better technical superb gem wildly carnival colored original mint set toned 54-s franklin BUY IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
So, as you see modern "carnival" coins are actually a good thing
Wondercoin
<< <i>also when they realize they got taken by all the rat a$$ hackers hawkers barkers carnival stooges
peddling all the high rarified ga-ga grade pices of plastic with really enticing rarified labels inside these shangra-la coins
and when these collectors leave shangra-la they are extremely surprised as such
then they move to classical coinage be it biz strike or proof circ or ms as long as the coin has great eye appeal for the assigned grade and i might add only buying scarce good value classic coinage
now put that in your hat ot put that to music with the cords i have struck on here
Looks like we got us a troll.
<< <i>"if you can find one better technical superb gem wildly carnival colored original mint set toned 54-s franklin BUY IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" >>
I stand corrected.
There is hype and hypocrisy in later date coins.
Anywhere there's money to be made there will eventually be the opportunists moving in to get some of it.
I moved from years of Classic coin collecting to collecting only Moderns. I have done my homework, therefore my decision. I did not submit to any emotional hoowie, just the facts.
TPG's variable standards changed the collecting of Classic coins (for me). Based on my extensive research of the (changing) Classic grading standards/pop. numbers, in general, I now see Classic coin collecting riskier than what I now collect, plain and simple.
To be sure, I don't collect all moderns, as I am sure most "classic collectors" don't collect all classics. But, based on my homework, I now try to collect just those Moderns destined to become classic.
RC - By chance, you wouldn't be talking about a pop 1 modern like this PCGS-MS70 in your "Complete Eagle collection", would you? By the way, congratulations on completed nearly 3/4 of the herculean (270) coin collection. Do you plan to have it completed by the next Registry deadline?
A "Registrycoin" Perfect Modern Coin Destined For Stardom?
Wondercoin
<< <i>RC - By chance, you wouldn't be talking about a pop 1 modern like this PCGS-MS70 in your "Complete Eagle collection", would you? >>
Yes, also I was thinking about "common as dirt" proofs, like those platinums with under 10,000 mintages...
But, do roughly half trade at less than $300/coin (about 1/4 at less than $175/coin) ?
Wondercoin
I am curious as to the % of the very high end Modern collectors, spending pretty big bucks on these coins, also collect series dated before 1900.
I'm not criticizing them or you for their collecting habits, but would like information on the range of the series they collect.
I know you have an interest in many series, and supply the nickels I like best to several clients. And you have a great interest in the patterns.
But are most modern collectors(that you deal with) only into the MS/Proof 67's and above, minted after 1964? Or do many also collect at least by type, in the earlier series?
WRT the Washington quarters, of which I know little, how did MS 67's get to be valued at 100 times 66's, for many of the dates?
I need to figure out how we might do the same thing in other series.
I need to figure out how we might do the same thing in other series."
THE EASIEST PART OF YOUR QUESTION, SO I WILL GET TO IT FIRST:
Very few Wash quarters trade at 100x between MS66 and MS67. A coin like the 62(d) or 61(d) certainly has traded at that differential, but take a closer look at the series as a whole:
A. The key date 1930's quarters tend to trade around 5x - 8x or so between MS66 and MS67 (ex: that $800 1937(s) I just discussed vs. an MS67 price of roughly $5,000 - $6,500).
B. The better date 1940's quarters tend to trade around the same 5x -10x differential as well and ditto for the 1950's with just a couple exceptions (ex. of an exception: 1952(d) MS66 less than $200 vs. MS67 price of roughly $5,000-$7,000 = 25x to 35x). Commons from the 1930's to 1950's often trade at roughly the 5x-10x multiple as well (ex: 1934(p) in MS66 might trade at $100-$150 in MS66 and $750-$1,000 in MS67).
C. Some 1959-1964 Wash quarters trade at multiples approaching 100x between MS66 and MS67 simply because the coins are virtually unknown to date in the MS67 grade. I mentioned 1961(d) and 1962(d). 1959(p) and 1961(p) are certainly a couple others. Note that nearly every top upgrader in the country has tried to slab these dates in MS67 as far as I know. Even upgraders who focus 99% on classic 19th century coins I often ran into at the auctions willing to pay $1,000 or $1,500 for a "PQ" MS66 coin they thought had a shot to upgrade. Which actually brings up a tangential question - since upgraders, serious collectors, etc. are willing to (and have paid) pay $1,000 - $1,500 for a PQ MS66 example of an otherwise $100-$250 1962(d) or 1961(d) is the differential really 100x or roughly 10x since the high end specimens tend to trade at $1,000+ anyway, not $100+?
I hope this at least gives you some idea though that the series, as a whole, is not chuck full of 100x jump coins (heck even the pop 1 1932(d) MS66 quarter only went up roughly 3x from the MS65 price when sold at auction).
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
I collect moderns and classics; basically I specialize in graded U.S. dollars and I have recently spread into graded half dollars:
For example I have a #1 ranked Sacagawea Proof dollar registry set; I also have #1 ranked Peace Dollar registry set.
I also throw raw mint sets, raw proof sets, raw Silver eagles and raw gold eagles into my collection just to mix things up.
Sometimes I can't even remember what all is in my collection.
Thank God for excel spread sheets and online hosting services
Thanks for the detailed answer, both as to the wash quarters and the variance of collector desires in these 2 different areas of numismatics.
I have been duly corrected on the prices for next grade in the quarters. More like 5 to 10 times for the low pop 67 over the 66(and also for the 66 over the 65). It would be an exception for the 67 to garner 50 to 100 times over the 66 for any date.
I would still like to get some help from you guys, as the normal multiple for the entire barber, liberty seated and bust series is 2, maybe 3 times the undergrade, when going from 65 to 66, 66 to 67.
And less than 50% more between grades for the true rarites.
If you can explain how it happened(and also with the classic commems that are monster toned), I would be thankful and enlightened.
Russ, NCNE
RR
Dale: Most MS65 to MS66 moves on better date stuff are more like 2x-3x. For example, that 37(s) quarter in MS66 at $800 might command roughly 1/2 that amount in MS65. On common coins, the differential between MS65 and MS66 is as little as 25% - 50% (ex: coins going from $30 in MS65 to $50 in MS66).
So, in conclusion, the silver quarter series does not behave that much differently than many other 20th century classic coin series (e.g. a 1926(s) Buffalo nickel jumping from, say $15k-$20k in MS64 to $75k -$100k in MS65. True - that jump is merely 5x or so on the Buffalo nickel, but it is also $60,000 absolute $$$ vs. a Washington quarter jump of say $1000 to $10,000 - still just $9,000 absolute $$$ for that extreme Wash quarter example.
Wondercoin
Are your eyes really that bad the the nickel is the smallest coin you will collect??? You know they make readers that can be as strong as 4x... trust me, I need them and can still enjoy a nice dime!!
<< <i>Find that 55-D for me, Russ. (g)
RR >>
It's on my hunting list, along with a few others I'll likely never find.
Russ, NCNE
I have personally spent the better part of the last (20) years searching for a solid MS67 (still pop 0). I have done just about everything to find one, including paid up to $2,000/coin for super nice MS66 examples, cracked one or more NGC-MS67 examples, purchased thousands upon thousands of dollars (perhaps tens of thousands of dollars) of fresh 1955 mint sets, toiled with countless original rolls and searched probably hundreds of auctions - IF AND WHEN I FINALLY SLAB ONE, AT BEST I WILL LIKELY "BREAK EVEN" FOR MY OUT OF POCKET EXPENSES ON THIS DATE, EVEN IF I SOLD IT FOR $20,000!!
Wondercoin
<< <i>
I would still like to get some help from you guys, as the normal multiple for the entire barber, liberty seated and bust series is 2, maybe 3 times the undergrade, when going from 65 to 66, 66 to 67.
And less than 50% more between grades for the true rarites.
If you can explain how it happened(and also with the classic commems that are monster toned), I would be thankful and enlightened. >>
There are a very large number of factors which cause this difference. Perhaps the greatest
is that there were collectors back in the old days who actually saved some coins. Collectors
have always sought quality so they would naturally set aside a nice specimen for their col-
lections and a few more for trade or future collectors. In those days most of the coins were
fairly well made and craftsman ship and quality were not only accepted but were usually de-
manded.
In the last few decades there have not been collectors for these coins. People didn't have
collections or set aside most of the coins for future collectors. If not for mint packaged sets
many of these coins would not exist at all. Buyers of these sets weren't putting aside coins
for a collection in most cases, they were merely speculating or looking for quick profits. They
didn't even open these sets, they just waited till they had a profit and sold to someone else
who was speculating. Indeed the supply so dwarfed the demand that many of the mint sets
sold for less than face value for many years!!!. Even proof sets got down as low as about a
50% premium to face.
These coins are all specially made for collectors and are usually far higher quality than the
coins made for circulation. But, the quality is still very hit and miss. Sometimes everything
goes right in the production of a coin and it will be a gem. But since there weren't collectors
this gem had a high probability of being cut out of the mint set and spent. No one cared.
The percentage of gems can be very low in the mint sets and appears to approach zero in
the coins made for circulation. There are many dates of post-64 issues for which I've never
seen a gem that was made for circulation. There are also many dates for which gems are
scarce or rare in the mint sets. Both the proof and mint sets have had extremely high attri-
tion so a low percentage of the few left is a very very small number.
There is great variability of quality from year to year in the mint and proof sets. Some years
the top quality is superb but pretty scarce and it might be pretty good and quite common.
Other years quality is poor and even average quality is difficult. There is also great variability
in the savings rates of the regular issue coins and their quality.
In all things, my aesthetic tends toward 19th century classical design. Musically, I like everything from Chopin to Rachmaninoff, and nothing thereafter. On canvas, the same - my artistic preferences all pre-date the cultural implosion of Europe in WW I. I like nice materials, such as marble and silver, as vs. plastic and zinc. So for me, it is a no brainer numismatically. Nothing interests me much after we went off the gold standard. I would never be interested in moderns. Just a matter of taste. I loathe the designs and the materials.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Craig: I agree with you. Frankly, you should fly out here with your nicest (2) or (3) 55(d) coins you own. I'll bring my (2) or (3) nicest and Nick can drive up and bring his best 55(d) coin as well. Anyone else can also come to the 55(d) quarter "party" (I am sure DP might have an interest in attending as well). We can all then meet down the street from PCGS, pass around all the 55(d) coins and (most likely) all agree this group of 55(d) coins represents close to the nicest 55(d) quarters on the planet, known at this time. We can then submit them all on Presidential Review and ask DH to consider using the entire grading scale for the 55(d) quarter and slab the nicest (3) coins MS67. This way, there would be no runaway auction prices for a pop 1 and the (3) nicest 55(d) quarters would find there way in PCGS-MS67 holders all at once. What do you say Craig - are you in? Bring your checkbook and I'll bring mine just in case Nick's quarter is the only one selected
Wondercoin
Well, one day it will happen.
RR
<< <i>Mitch,
I am curious as to the % of the very high end Modern collectors, spending pretty big bucks on these coins, also collect series dated before 1900.
I'm not criticizing them or you for their collecting habits, but would like information on the range of the series they collect.
I know you have an interest in many series, and supply the nickels I like best to several clients. And you have a great interest in the patterns.
But are most modern collectors(that you deal with) only into the MS/Proof 67's and above, minted after 1964? Or do many also collect at least by type, in the earlier series?
WRT the Washington quarters, of which I know little, how did MS 67's get to be valued at 100 times 66's, for many of the dates?
I need to figure out how we might do the same thing in other series. >>
I collect what I like.....Be it High Grade Modern or Vintage (Classic 1800-1900) Coins, I also do somethings in the Canadian Side. I enjoy many coins and many series, it all what YOU feel comfortable collecting. When its not fun, then its time to close the safe and start a new hobby. Once you figure out your new hobby, your investment in coins my well have paid for itself...given enough time. I don't golf, ( I do shoot however) but from what I have seen, It too (Golf) can be pretty pricey and hard to learn? Kind of like coins...........No?
COLLECT WHAT YOU LIKE, THATS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT.
I`m kind of in the middle here. I inherited a couple of boxes of Morgans, Peace, Walkers, Barber dimes...etc.
Since then , I have started a 20th. century set and pick up a classic here and there ( my 1872 toner half dime is in Keets virtual type set).
I`m also putting together a modern mint set as a birth year set.
Buy what ya like and have fun!
Manuel
SM1 calls me a troublemaker....
--------------------------------------------
Sunday August 19, 2007 9:17AM
A mentor awarded " YOU SUCK!!"
well i see i hit a chord on here so you might want to put it to music yourself with all this cut and paste you do .......got a guilty conscience or cant take the heat??
i think that post 1955 coins are not moderns at all .............
DRG: When Michael was peddling a "modern" coin on the BST board the other day, he, himself, was describing his very own coin for sale in this manner:
"if you can find one better technical superb gem wildly carnival colored original mint set toned 54-s franklin BUY IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
So, as you see modern "carnival" coins are actually a good thing
it is the peddlers that send in huge amounts of raw moderns to slabbing services and then refuses them back at the coin show pick up of his submissions when he does not get his ms/pf70 grades and they go back and the powers that be give him some ms/pf70 grades
sounds like sour grapes to me
must have some sort of guilty conscience
Wondercoin