What tools do you use in evaluating cards for submissions?

ArnyVee

I know that a lot of folks use the 'ol eyeball method...but, those pros out there....what do you use to help you secure those good grades? Or, at least give yourself a fighting chance?

I've submitted very few times (and am ready to send soon) and always get back dissapointing grades for the most part. So, any help would be helpful.

wolfbear

First off, use a ruler to measure the borders.
Reject any card that doesn't have centering with the guidelines of the grade you want.

Then, under a good light, twist and turn the card while examining the surface.
Reject any card with wrinkles, bubbles, or other flaws that will cause it to be downgraded.

Next, you must use some form of magnification under a good light.
Examine the edges and pay special attention to the corners, and reject the cards that aren't sharp.

Set the cards that passed all the tests aside
and go through them again a few days later to catch anything you may have missed the 1st time through.

Presto ... you're on your way to getting better results ...

yawie99

I have one of these, which I really like. Since I mainly submit prewar stuff nowadays, I'm not as concerned with condition as I was when I was submitting modern and quasi-vintage stuff, but I still find the illuminated magnifier pretty helpful.

Carew29

I use a jeweler's loupe 20x. And ye old eyeball. Hence the grades i just received back from PSA.

PSA Order Status for Submission # 575834



1 12260341 1975 SSPC PUZZLE BACKS ROD CAREW N/A 9
1 12260342 1975 SSPC PUZZLE BACKS ROD CAREW N/A 7
1 12260343 1975 SSPC PUZZLE BACKS ROD CAREW N/A 8
2 12260344 1976 CRANE ROD CAREW POTATO CHIPS DISCS 10
3 12260345 1976 ORBAKER'S DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
4 12260346 1976 SAFELON DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
5 12260347 1977 CHILLY WILLEE ROD CAREW DISCS 10
6 12260348 1977 DAIRY ISLE DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
6 12260349 1977 DAIRY ISLE DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
7 12260350 1977 DETROIT CAESARS ROD CAREW DISCS 10
8 12260351 1977 HOLIDAY INN DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
9 12260352 1977 PEPSI-COLA ROD CAREW BASEBALL STARS 6 ------ I swear, i had something in my eye!!
9 12260353 1977 PEPSI-COLA ROD CAREW BASEBALL STARS 9
10 12260354 1977 SAGA DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
11 12260355 1976 TOWNE CLUB DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
12 12260356 1977 WENDY'S DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 9
13 12260357 1977 ZIP'Z DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 10
14 12260358 1978 PAPA GINO'S DISCS 35 ROD CAREW N/A 9
15 12260359 1978 BIG T/TASTEE 8 ROD CAREW DISCS 9
16 12260360 1981 MSA DISCS ROD CAREW PETER PAN/SUNBEAM BAKERY 8
17 12260361 1982 ON DECK COOKIES ROD CAREW DISCS 8
18 12260362 1985 THOM McAN DISCS ROD CAREW N/A 9

Date Received: 07/07/2005
Date of Grades Posted: 08/02/2005
Date Shipped: 08/04/2005

ArnyVee

Thanks for the responses so far.

Question, how much was that lighted magnified thingamabobby?

Where can I find jeweler loupes? I mean, good ones at a decent price. Any suggestions?

ctsoxfan

I use a very inexpensive loupe (bought it at a show, from a guy who used to be a professional grader), and a very bright lamp. I loupe all the corners, and check the surface under the bright light. Usually picks out most every flaw.

yawie99

I think it was about $50-60, AV. Not cheap, but well worth it, I think. I bought it online from a science supply store, I think.

Carew29

Here was my winning auction for my loupe------ a whopping $9.95

Southerncards

My loupe was bought for less than $10 on the bay....works great!

zef204

I have an old eye loupe from my grandfather who was a jeweler, and it was one of the kind you actually put in your eye, or socket.

I bought one of these $10 ones off of ebay similar to the one Carew showed, and it was crap. I went back to the one I put in my eye and I find it to work real well.


One thing I suggest is to not look at the name or picture so you can objectively grade the card. I think this is the biggest problem people make. If it is O/C and has a soft corner, it doesn't matter that it is your favorite card, it won't grade past that O/C and corner. So as far as set building if you only want 8's and up, you might not want to waste money on grading if you fall subject to overgrading your stars. I hope this makes some sense to someone.

phreakydancin

A plastic dollar-store 10X loupe got me these on the last $5 special

LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 31147498 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 5 JAMES HUNT OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
2 31147499 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 8 PETER COLLINS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
3 31147500 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 9 GEORGE BEST OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
4 31147501 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 10 RAY WILKINS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
5 31147502 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 13 PETER SHILTON OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
6 31147503 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 14 KEVIN KEEGAN OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 8
7 31147504 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 15 TREVOR BROOKING OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
8 31147505 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 17 CYRILLE REGIS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
9 31147506 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 16 KENNY DALGLISH OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
10 31147507 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 18 BOBBY CHARLTON OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
11 31147508 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 19 JOHAN CRUYFF OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
12 31147509 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 20 S. BALLESTEROS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 8
13 31147510 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 25 LEE TREVINO OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
14 31147511 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 26 J.P.R. WILLIAMS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
15 31147512 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 27 GARETH EDWARDS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
16 31147513 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 29 WILLIE CARSON OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
17 31147514 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 31 EDDIE MACKEN OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
18 31147515 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 32 DAVID BROOME OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
19 31147516 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 35 MIKE BREARLEY OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
20 31147517 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 37 VIV RICHARDS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
21 31147518 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 39 BOB WILLIS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
22 31147519 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 42 OLGA KORBUT OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9
23 31147520 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 43 L. TOURISCHEVA OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 10
24 31147521 1979 VENORLANDUS LTD. 44 JIMMY CONNORS OUR HEROES WORLD OF SPORT 9

BarkusD

Arny,
I bought mine locally at Pearls on Oakland Park Boulevard. I like it because it has a detachable ruler which measures in millimeters through the loupe. You just lay the loupe on top of each side of the card and it is easy to measure centering. It was cheap (under $20) and Pearls should be easy for you to visit. There are also three card shops near there that are always worth a quick visit on the odd chance they have found some new cards.

SOM

An overlooked grading tool: the sun.

Take your card outside and look at it in the bright sunshine. You'll be surprised how unforgiving that ball of fire is!

Nick

bowdowntome

You can get loupes of varying sizes at stamp and coin shops as well.

Also, if you are collecting cards with colored borders, you might look into a handheld UV lamp which will detect penmarks (Sharpie on those 71's), white out etc...

I use alot of the same tools I use for stamp collecting, mostly a 16x loupe which I've had for 25 years. Since I got into computers I also have an Intel computer microscope. Not really practical, but fun to see how bad cards really look under 200 magnification.

As far as lights go, I'd suggest an Ott lamp. They are the closest thing to natural light you can get to set on your desk. Not particularly cheap (around $100 for a desk lamp), but are very popular among many different hobbies like this. Last time I checked they can be found at Office Depot.

I've only submitted a few cards so far, but when (or if) I get into it more, I feel I'll be fully prepared as far as tools go.

Krems

I thought I was the only one who used the sun...I usually eyeball my cards and to come up with the ones that I want to submit. I then take those cards out on the deck in the bright sunlight. You would be amazed at what you can catch. After looking at the cards in the sun, I can usually catch most defects that I would have missed otherwise. I never use magnification and usually get pretty good grades.

Ripken

About 2 years ago, I purchased an adjustable magnifying lamp that sits on a table or floor. It has a 5" wide lens and is lighted so you can use both hands while examining the cards under magnification. Too bulky for shows, obviously (and it has to be plugged in) but it's saved me hundreds of dollars and is easy to use. No squinting! The base is VERY heavy so it's not easily transported but for a few submissions a year, it's been worth it. I think you can also buy the ones that just attach to a table.

I've never used a loupe, but I think this has to be easier to use when you're at home, going thru a few dozen vintage cards. The only negative thing is it doesn't adjust for curvature very well, so you have to move the card around just a bit to see everything. I believe it's a 5x, but that's been almost perfect for this purpose. I purchased it on a Buy it Now thru EBay for around $125 ppd. Don't recall where I got it. Just make sure you get one that has the 5" viewiing area. I love the fact that I can use both hands to sort thru the cards & inspect them.

VintageJeff

I have a few of these I used to sell on ebay. I will sell them for $7 shipped. Let me know. They are 10X jewlers loupes in a very small size that are great to take to card shows etc. I have used them on my submissions with great results.

ArnyVee

Very cool....thanks for the comments and suggestions. So far, looks like I'm between going to Pearls here locally or picking up one of those from VintageJeff. Knowing myself and the fact that I'm WAY too busy to even get to a local store, I might go with Option B. But, keep the suggestions coming! It's great to discuss techniques....ie "Ball of Fire" method.

theplasticman

King Kellogg suggested a particular lamp to use. It really helps a lot. After pre-grading some cards by eyeballing then putting them under this lamp... every blemish is pretty easy to see!

smallstocks

I use the same loupe Vintage jeff is selling and it works great for me.

Mike

MorrellMan

It set me back some bucks, but pregrading is important to me.

Mefer

I join all of the good comments before me. I want to add, however, that when you go looking at a card, you need to have in mind what would be your minimum grade. If you are sending in a 2005 Topps Heritage card, you are most likely looking for 10s. Compare this to a 1952 Topps Mantle where you are most likely not as picky on the grade (I can see it now, "I can't send in this crappy Mantle, it will only grade a 7"). After you have the idea of what grade you want, look carefully with the minimum grade in mind.

ctsoxfan

The loupe I use is also exactly like one in VintageJeff's scan - and it works perfectly.

sagard

By using the loupe are you trying to discern between 8s and 9s or are you trying to find the elusive PSA 10? Does it help determine trim jobs?

EagleEyeKid

I have a Carson 5X monster loupe (you don't need 10x) which I don't use anymore. It fits over the entire card and you'll be able to pick up everything. It looks like a small jeweler's loupe, but imagine this thing the size of your palm. The lens itself is glass. If anyone wants it, PM me. $40 delivered. We use this in our forsenics lab to look at blood stains, gun powder residue, etc. You get the picture.

Pittfan

Heres one just clip your cards in and hands free!!!!Link

Ripken

I'm really trying to discern between grades, yes. I'd never say 'that's a 10'...PSA seems to pull those out on a whim from some otherwise great 9s, but it does make it easier to discern from 7/8 8/9. When buying raw, I can be fairly certain a card will grade at least 8. Under the light & magnifier I can usually tell if it's a definite 8..a possible 9..or whether I missed something like a trail of tiny print dots. That's where I save the money--grading fees for cards that would come back lesser if I didn't have a magnifier. I still miss a few that come back trimmed or minimum size (I don't measure), but on my last submission quest, I was able to pull about 20 cards out of a 100 card buy that I didn't think were worthy (usually late 60s or early 70s that might be 8s not 9's and thus won't sell for the grading fee). Makes me mad I missed it at the show, but the rejects are usually better than what I have in my own sets so most of the time, I'm able to upgrade there and am not really 'out' anything.

downgoesfrazier

never fails


dgf

pandrews

bowdowntome

Sometimes I just ask the neighbor kid down the street to help. He doesn't talk much, but he's enthusiastic!

Boopotts

I just eyeball 'em and send them in. Seriously, that's all I do. Anything I send in (well, almost anything) I will at least break even with if it comes back one grade lower then I anticipated. So why agonize over it? I look it over, check for surface wrinkles, and if it looks good off it goes.

Really, what's the point of using a loupe? Unless you're sending in 80's and 90's stuff that has to end up in a 10 holder to make it worth your while I think there are better ways to spend your time. Just giving a card a good once over in direct light will tell you if it has a reasonable enough chance to come back either an 8 or a 9, and with anything where an acceptable grade is lower than that you definitely don't need magnification.

Boopotts

Also, I really doubt that the graders use magnification, so in my opinion if I use it I'll just confuse the issue. Can you imagine looking at 200 cards a day with your eye pressed up against a loupe or a lens? Talk about a headache. For big dollar cards they may do this, but for most of the middle of the road stuff that I send in I can't imagine they go to that extreme.

gaspipe26

10 loupe is fine. The hand held lighted one is best. Just received another large submission back today with 78% 9's and 10's . From 1964 thru 1975.

bowdowntome

boopotts - I'd be highly surprised to find out that graders didn't use magnification. In fact, I'd be more than a little upset if I found out they didn't have a forensics lab that rivals the FBI, for the amount of money they are making, and the amount of hype they put out, that touts them as "professional" graders. If the average collector is better equiped to examine cards, what's the point?

I would also be upset to find out that they try to do a better job examining the "more expensive" cards, than they do a common. It should be the same quality of examination, regardless of what the card is worth.

Just me opining.

gaspipe26

Of course they use magnifiers. 10x loupes.

Boopotts

"Of course they use magnifiers. 10x loupes."

I don't want this to get personal, but what do you mean, 'of course they use magnifiers?' Have you sat down and had a beer with a grader and asked him? Because if you haven't this statement sound presumptuous.

Like I said, I seriously doubt this. And I have good reason to do so.

Back when I first started submitting my Master Plan was to break cases of junk wax, pull the high grade stars and submit those cards that were '10' worth. I was still under the impression that the '10' grade was something other than an arbitrary designation, so I figured if I just spent more time examining my cards and weeding out the wannabees I could greatly improve my '9 to 10' ratio.


I can tell you that I cut no corners. I bought loupes. I bought lamps. I bought a 400$ scanner, scanned my cards and blew them up to 3200 dpi. I pored over the surfaces, and discarded any card that lost so much as a trace of gloss or exhibited centering worse than 53/47. And after 300 cards or so I was batting around 25% with 10's.

So, enough with that. As an experiment I put all that stuff aside and just started eyeballing the cards. Giving them a good once over, then either dropping them in a Card Saver or putting them in a 3200 ct. box. And my next 200 cards I hit 21%-- which isn't as good as 25%, I guess, although it's still well within the margin of error.

My conclusion? Actually, I drew two of them.

1) There is no such thing as a '10'. Or, should I say that no amount of scrutiny will distinguish between a 10 and a 9. All a 10 is is a 9 with exceptional eye appeal; and that 'eye appeal' can and will vary from grader to grader, or even vary with the same grader from day to day.

2) Graders don't use magnification. And even if they do use it it will do YOU no good to use it for the reasons I pointed out in my original post.

sagard

<< <i>10 loupe is fine. The hand held lighted one is best. Just received another large submission back today with 78% 9's and 10's . From 1964 thru 1975. >>



You are very experienced in the grading though and I'm guessing your naked eye screening is pretty darn good as well. How many do you pull out because of the loupe? 5%?

Boopotts

I'd be interested to hear if Bryan uses magnification, since judging from his submission results I'd say he probably has the best eye of any of us.

gaspipe26

If you dont believe they use magnifiers, your in dream land. All the graders at ALL the companies use 10x loupes. I submit 10000 to 15000 cards a year, and yes I've sat with graders and discussed what to look for and what causes grades to be lowered. You can sit and talk to them too. I dont always agree with them but thats life. Just go to a major show and ask. At the National 10 days ago, you could of stood there and watched the GAI graders grade cards with there loupes in there hands.
You cannot accurately grade cards without a loupe. You can narrow down the playing field with the naked eye, but you cant distiguish between 7,8 and 9 without it.

VintageJeff

<< <i>If you dont believe they use magnifiers, your in dream land. All the graders at ALL the companies use 10x loupes. I submit 10000 to 15000 cards a year, and yes I've sat with graders and discussed what to look for and what causes grades to be lowered. You can sit and talk to them too. I dont always agree with them but thats life. Just go to a major show and ask. At the National 10 days ago, you could of stood there and watched the GAI graders grade cards with there loupes in there hands.
You cannot accurately grade cards without a loupe. You can narrow down the playiong field with the naked eye, but you cant distiguish between 7,8 and 9 without it. >>



Couldn't agree more, with every word in this post. Well said.

gaspipe26

sagard,
I have many many cards. I have alot of vending too. I go through about 5000 cards for every 500 I'll submit. Yes I narrow without a loupe and choose what I submit with it. I have done very very well in terms of pct 9 and 10. I also do well with older commons that are 8's. My pct there is pretty good too. One of the best eyes in the hobby is dhcards and dude. They probrably have a high Pct than me as well as dslsports, just to name a few. There are others much better than me but I cant remember all of them.

Boopotts

If you've talked to graders and they've told you they use loupes then I stand corrected.

Re: your other point, that you can't distinguish between a 7,8 or 9 without it-- you're working from the faulty assumption that every card 'belongs' in a specific holder, and it's the graders job to put it in the correct one. This isn't how it works. A card that looks like a 'high end' 8 in reality has about an 80% chance of getting slabbed an 8, maybe a 15% chance of being graded a 9 and a 5% chance of being graded a 10. There are a few cards which are so 'solid' that they could only end up in one holder, but they're in the definite minority. Most cards could comfortably fit in two (and some as many as three) holders.

sagard

<< <i>...I have done very very well in terms of pct 9 and 10..... >>



That's being modest. I think I've purchased cards from you and they were very nice.

gaspipe26

Well I dont know about cards being able to be in 2 to 3 holders. When I grade I classify cards in groups. 9 maybe 10, or just 9, or 8, and finally below 8. I sometimes get a bump up, sometimes a bump down, sometimes my 8 pile will bring 0 cards in 9. When you know what to look for, and look accurately, you narrow your mistakes. Most of my mistakes nowadays are cards with paper wrinkles. I dont look for them. You would be surprised how many great looking cards have them. If I get a 5 now, I know immediately its a wrinkle. My results from yesterday yielded 3-5's out of 400 cards. I even got a 2, a 2? what did I miss on that one? A piece missing? I cant wait to see that one, but I got an idea.If found on some of my vending 74's that there are severe wrinkles on certain cards. Most of my Bill Fahey's are like this. Dont know why, just are. This Nate Colbert Washington Variation MUST be like that.. I had 5 of them submitted. I thought they were 8's with maybe a lower 7 in there. I received 3-8's, 1-7 and a 2!

ArnyVee

I'm sure that it's been discussed a million and two times, but what is the best route to go in finding raw cards to submit? I'm mainly interested in '70s stuff, so keep that in mind. Should you simply go around to local shows and shops (not a lot down here in South Florida) and pick through the raw cards to find them? Are there any sites that don't charge an arm and a leg for commons/minor stars and are either dead on or really close with their grades that they claim their cards are? Or, should I simply purchase some unopened stuff? If 'unopened' is the answer, then which way would you pros go? Rack packs, vending, wax,?

gaspipe26

Arny,
Its so hard to find nice raw today. I'm fortunate that I have a large supply to go thru. Even then only 10% are worthy enough to get submitted.

ctsoxfan

I agree - it was tough enough several years ago finding quality raw cards...now, any dealer with high grade raw wants more than top dollar for it. And, there are no guarantees that the card wasn't altered in some way. If you don't have it already, or don't open it yourself, you aren't going to find much vintage raw out there at this point.