2006: Down to Two Baseball Brands
Stone193
Posts: 24,435 ✭✭✭✭✭
With the 2006 season, only Topps and UD will be producing baseball cards. Of course Fleer and Donruss were the last to go.
Of interest is the fact that beginning with the 2006 sets, a new "Rookie Card" logo will appear on the cards of players who make their Major League Baseball debut, ideally giving those cards clear-cut rookie-card status in the hobby. The great thing about this is the fact that from 2006 on, there will no longer need to be the debate over whether the card qualifies as a rookie or not.
Under the new rules, Topps will still be allowed to put minor leaguers in their Bowman brands, but only subsets and inserts - so they can't carry RC designations under the current price guide definitions.
With only two, the emphasis is on bringing kids back to the hobby. Go figure? Kids and baseball cards...what a novel idea!
Anybody have any thoughts?
I will miss the competition of Fleer and Donruss but not the added skazillion sets.
mike
Of interest is the fact that beginning with the 2006 sets, a new "Rookie Card" logo will appear on the cards of players who make their Major League Baseball debut, ideally giving those cards clear-cut rookie-card status in the hobby. The great thing about this is the fact that from 2006 on, there will no longer need to be the debate over whether the card qualifies as a rookie or not.
Under the new rules, Topps will still be allowed to put minor leaguers in their Bowman brands, but only subsets and inserts - so they can't carry RC designations under the current price guide definitions.
With only two, the emphasis is on bringing kids back to the hobby. Go figure? Kids and baseball cards...what a novel idea!
Anybody have any thoughts?
I will miss the competition of Fleer and Donruss but not the added skazillion sets.
mike
Mike
0
Comments
loth
<< <i>who made these rules?? will UD and Topps have to use the same "rookie" logo?
loth >>
Hi Ryan
I wondered the same thing about a "uniform" RC logo?
The rules are being set by MLB and the MLBPA.
mike
loth
I followed the demise of Fleer, but when and how did Donruss not make the cut?!
I'll go back to sleep and hope there's an answer when I get woken up again...
hh
(Edited to add: )
Never mind. I did a search and found the July thread which came out while I was on vacation. Sad news to me in a way. I loved Donruss from '81 to '91 during the second (of three) collecting periods in my life...
hh
I assume they mean how many brands/sets that one can collect from the two companies - that's an average of 20 per company! Still way too many IMO.
mike
I mainly collect Padres and Chargers, and have absolutely no idea what cards have been printed over the last 5-7 years. I've totally given up on trying to maintain my team sets.
Now, thank God (and MLB), it will at least be easier to keep track of the cards that are available
Steve
Do you think they (Topps and Upper Deck) will up the production numbers of most sets because there is less overall competition this year while hopefully the same number of buyers out there?
<< <i>Good grief. I feel like Grandfather Clock getting woken up here (and I wonder how many people on this board will know who that is?!
I followed the demise of Fleer, but when and how did Donruss not make the cut?!
I'll go back to sleep and hope there's an answer when I get woken up again...
hh >>
hh
I'm inferring from the article since it doesn't "literally" spell it out that MLB/MLBPA somehow didn't offer Donruss another contract to do baseball.
mike
No more! A great change, to say the least.
<< <i>BTW, SCD says that with the exit of Fleer - the brands total will be cut to just under 40.
I assume they mean how many brands/sets that one can collect from the two companies - that's an average of 20 per company! Still way too many IMO.
mike >>
If that's the case Mike, I completely agree with you!
I would say no more than 5 sets per company (and that's probably still too many!!!!!)
Steve
mike
I would say no more than 5 sets per company (and that's probably still too many!!!!!)"
You do that and you're right back where we were in the late '80's, early '90's; a few metric tons of each card produced, with the sheer volume guaranteeing that nothing will ever be scarce enough to hold it's value.
Also, even if this rule was instituted it wouldn't change anything, since Topps and UD would just load every set with parallels, subsets and inserts. If we learned one thing from the debacle 15 years ago it's that there at least has to be an illusion of scarcity if the product is going to retain any value.
Sure, you just cut them out - laid off a mess of people and you wish them well? Go figure.
mike
I do agree with you all about the upside of limiting when an RC of a player can be issued! While on vacation last month, my brother-in-law decided to buy some of Derek Lee's rookie cards. Ha! You've never seen such a confused man as the store manager explained to him which year and set to really look in...
hh
loth
very interesting..
<< <i>I long for the day when driving home from work I can stop and get gas..walk in to pay....and throw 4 packs of 50 cent cards with "the real one!" on the pack to the cashier and then check out a card thats a legitimate RC.........AINT ANY OF US GOING TO GET RICH WITH PULLING A #'ed to 5 RC from a 4000 dollar box of crap......If thats the hobby we want we should go back to school and get a better job..... >>
Well stated.
<< <i>"If that's the case Mike, I completely agree with you!
I would say no more than 5 sets per company (and that's probably still too many!!!!!)"
You do that and you're right back where we were in the late '80's, early '90's; a few metric tons of each card produced, with the sheer volume guaranteeing that nothing will ever be scarce enough to hold it's value.
Also, even if this rule was instituted it wouldn't change anything, since Topps and UD would just load every set with parallels, subsets and inserts. If we learned one thing from the debacle 15 years ago it's that there at least has to be an illusion of scarcity if the product is going to retain any value. >>
That may be true, but all that should be needed to pre-empt that is for the powers-that-be to put a cap on the number of cards each company can produce. That way, they can't flood the market with millions of the same cards.
The hobby up through the 1970's and into the early 1980's was fun. Before 1981 you had Topps, and starting in 1981 you had Topps, Fleer and Donruss; each putting out a max of maybe 4-5 sets. Collectors and the hobby papers could easily keep track of what was available. Starting in 1987, the companies started flooding the market and that was, for me anyway, the beginning of the end.
Speaking only for myself, I would absolutely love to see a return to the way the hobby was pre-1987, where you could know what was available, and easily find it. The cards would hold their value, although probably no one would get rich on it. Then again, very few of us are really trying to get rich...it is after all, a hobby
Steve
I've heard opinions like yours voiced on these boards before, and while I fully respect where you're coming from I stil don't understand it. The volume of new products issued ever year should make no difference to anyone who's only concerned with enjoying the hobby. If you're not into parallels, refractors, etc., then just go buy packs of Topps, or Topps Total, or UD MVP. They usually have attractive base sets with the full complement of stars, so in that way they're identical to the pre- '81 sets. In football and basketball they usually also have all the hot rookies.
It's only confusing if you let it be. People say their overwhelmed by all the different products. Well, the simple way around that is to ignore 99% of the new products released! If you're not into spending $100 a box then just write off most of the new stuff, and enjoy putting together sets of the lower end products. There's no law saying you have to have the skinny on every new product that comes out in order to enjoy modern cards.
<< <i>Hi Steve-
I've heard opinions like yours voiced on these boards before, and while I fully respect where you're coming from I stil don't understand it. The volume of new products issued ever year should make no difference to anyone who's only concerned with enjoying the hobby. If you're not into parallels, refractors, etc., then just go buy packs of Topps, or Topps Total, or UD MVP. They usually have attractive base sets with the full complement of stars, so in that way they're identical to the pre- '81 sets. In football and basketball they usually also have all the hot rookies.
It's only confusing if you let it be. People say their overwhelmed by all the different products. Well, the simple way around that is to ignore 99% of the new products released! If you're not into spending $100 a box then just write off most of the new stuff, and enjoy putting together sets of the lower end products. There's no law saying you have to have the skinny on every new product that comes out in order to enjoy modern cards. >>
Boo
I totally agree. The problem is that it's human nature to want to be in on everything and for some to "corner the market."
But, as you say - collect what you can afford and fits your style of collecting. Otherwise, people will have to admit they are quasi investing and are stressed by all the product conflicting with their bottom line - to sell the sets some day?
mike
I think that's the central conflict. People like to say their just in it for the hobby, but it's very, very hard not keep your eyes at least somewhat focused on the bottom line. That's just human nature, and I don't fault anyone for it. God knows I never lose sight of what something might be worth 3-5 years down the road, so I'm in no position to throw stones. But I think we'd all be happier if we just came to grips with this slightly unnerving aspect of the hobby and learned to deal with it as best we can.
From a collectors standpoint right now is inarguably the best time to be a sports card collector. If you're into set building there are plenty of low and mid range products that you can sink your teeth into. If you're into high dollar thrill rides there is no shortage of stuff out there as well. In sum, right now there really is 'something for everyone'; and that wasn't true during the hobby's supposed 'golden age'.
The investors will be retooling their thinking or at least narrowing their interests?
mike
a piece! Thats 40 cramed into a 10 month period. There was no big offender out of the group, they all overproduced and I have
have no doubt that they will continue to overproduce because that is what makes money. Hobby shops have been forced for years
to buy everything. Companies have taken advantage of this and have made their money at the hobby shops expense.
Of course now we have come to a saturation point. There just arn't enought hobby stores to meet the supply.
DLP was great for the hobby. Anyone who spent an hour in todays modern market knows that. They were and will probably remain
the only company to completly get rip of redemptions in baseball after 2004. That my friends is a huge deal. That is what we want.
If we are going to spend 100 dollars on a box for one hit, then we want that hit live. Sure people complained about the stickers, but
UD is 75% stickers now and topps 50%. They know that stickers cut costs and they are all for that.
What people don't understand, is that the rookie card as we know it today is about as hot as it gets. 2004 was a beastly year for
rookies. Zach Duke is 5-0 Felix Hernandez pitched well in his first game. Conon Jackson just hit 2 homers in only his 5th game.....
The rookie crop was led by the big three companies and their premeire rookie card products. Topps with bowman chrome and
bowman chrome draft picks, UD with Sp Prospects and Playoff with Donruss Elite. All three had great rookies in them, but the MLB
thought something had to be done. Well I can see why.....bowman draft picks had redemption cards for high school players!!!!
Sp Prospects isn't even licensed and they had to erase all the logos off the players helmet...and Elite....ummm wait...
Elite didn't mess with anything. They had rookies and had autos....so why was the only company who played by the rules kicked out??
I am here to say that this will KILL the modern card market. These late year rookie releases have driven the market for several years
now. Without them, the market is weak. Besides heritage, neither topps or UD has a product with strong brand tradition over the last
5 years.
So what do we get? We get the same garbage products, we get the same bad customer service and we get cards that will not be worth
anything. DLP was moving into the next century as far as product value, customer service and redemptions....MLB decided that
that competition wasn't good and just pushed back the hobby 5 years.
Was Joe Orlando right when he came on here and made a bold statement about one of DLP's nicest card? maybe. was that the real reason
DLP lost their license?? Just ask Pacific! rookie cards?? for the kids?? Please, how dumb do you think we are?
Unless something is done to change this, the hobby is going to cave in on itself. The baseball card market is and has always been
driven by the rookie card. When you take that away you lose the entire hobby. You think Upper Deck, who put out a 600.00 a pack
product cares about kids??
The ends is near my friends.
JS
<< <i>Hi Steve-
I've heard opinions like yours voiced on these boards before, and while I fully respect where you're coming from I stil don't understand it. The volume of new products issued ever year should make no difference to anyone who's only concerned with enjoying the hobby. If you're not into parallels, refractors, etc., then just go buy packs of Topps, or Topps Total, or UD MVP. They usually have attractive base sets with the full complement of stars, so in that way they're identical to the pre- '81 sets. In football and basketball they usually also have all the hot rookies.
It's only confusing if you let it be. People say their overwhelmed by all the different products. Well, the simple way around that is to ignore 99% of the new products released! If you're not into spending $100 a box then just write off most of the new stuff, and enjoy putting together sets of the lower end products. There's no law saying you have to have the skinny on every new product that comes out in order to enjoy modern cards. >>
Boopotts...
I understand what you're saying. Here's my main problem though...
As I said earlier, when it comes to current cards, I really only collect cards of San Diego Padres and Chargers. Due to the massive amount of cards produced, I can't tell what cards are even available, as there are no readily available checklists of the cards.
When I go to my local cardshops, they don't break open boxes or packs to sell singles. I do not buy packs and boxes, as 99.9% of the cards don't interest me. Even if I did buy a box of cards and tried to sell the cards I didn't want to keep, there is absolutely no way i'd get my money back, as the break value is infinitessimal compared to the box's cost. I simply want to be able to find what's out there that I'm interested in, and be able to get it at a reasonable cost. I do find some on ebay, but if you don't know a particular player has a card, you don't know to look for it. Also, when you add the cost of shipping to a single card purchase, you end up paying $4-5 for a card that's only worth 50c.
Steve
Having said that, I'm thinking the sky won't fall - there will still be plenty of RCs to chase - just easier to recognize them - I think MLB/MLBPA was moving into that arena even if there were 6 companies still producing baseball.
I hate redemptions and would like to see strong, high quality cards to collect. I do believe that the "prospect" chase will be reshaped in the future due to the RC designation.
Good points
mike
While you do bring up some valid points, your comment about the hobby always having been driven by the rookie card is incorrect.
Rookie card mania really only began in 1984 with Don Mattingly.
Prior to that, set collecting was what drove the hobby, with most collectors striving to collect the complete Topps set each year.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Hi Steve-
I've heard opinions like yours voiced on these boards before, and while I fully respect where you're coming from I stil don't understand it. The volume of new products issued ever year should make no difference to anyone who's only concerned with enjoying the hobby. If you're not into parallels, refractors, etc., then just go buy packs of Topps, or Topps Total, or UD MVP. They usually have attractive base sets with the full complement of stars, so in that way they're identical to the pre- '81 sets. In football and basketball they usually also have all the hot rookies.
It's only confusing if you let it be. People say their overwhelmed by all the different products. Well, the simple way around that is to ignore 99% of the new products released! If you're not into spending $100 a box then just write off most of the new stuff, and enjoy putting together sets of the lower end products. There's no law saying you have to have the skinny on every new product that comes out in order to enjoy modern cards. >>
Boopotts...
I understand what you're saying. Here's my main problem though...
As I said earlier, when it comes to current cards, I really only collect cards of San Diego Padres and Chargers. Due to the massive amount of cards produced, I can't tell what cards are even available, as there are no readily available checklists of the cards.
When I go to my local cardshops, they don't break open boxes or packs to sell singles. I do not buy packs and boxes, as 99.9% of the cards don't interest me. Even if I did buy a box of cards and tried to sell the cards I didn't want to keep, there is absolutely no way i'd get my money back, as the break value is infinitessimal compared to the box's cost. I simply want to be able to find what's out there that I'm interested in, and be able to get it at a reasonable cost. I do find some on ebay, but if you don't know a particular player has a card, you don't know to look for it. Also, when you add the cost of shipping to a single card purchase, you end up paying $4-5 for a card that's only worth 50c.
Steve >>
Steve
I'm pretty sure you know this guy but it's custom made for the "team collector" and he will fill you in on all the sets out there.
Gary Walter Baseball - one stop shopping.
mike
I just did a search on Beckett, and the term 'San Diego Padres Checklists' yielded 163 returns. Similarly, a search for 'San Diego Padres' yielded 640 returns, with most cards costing around 20-50 cents. You might want to poke around there and see if you turn up anything that interests you.
I remember seeing Gary Walter's ads years ago, but had forgotten about them
I'll be looking into his service.....
Steve
<< <i>Bowman and Bowman Chrome just ripped the heart right out of the hobby when they started producing RC's of players who were at least 3 years away from vying for the ROY. >>
Great quote by Boopotts. I agree 100% - if there is a hot rookie currently making a name for himself, I'd like to be able to open a box of the current years cards and try for his rookie. Simple as that - the way it used to be.
I for one will miss DLP in the baseball market - Leaf Certified, Certified Cuts, Prime Cuts, and Leaf Limited all were great rips in the last few years. I wonder how they'll survive on football cards alone.
years before they pick up a bat in a MLB game, thats what is exciting! Loading up on a guy and watching him slowly crawl
through the minor league system only to appear in the bigs on some crisp fall day in September.
Its a rush going through cards you bought back in 2002 and picking out 3 copies of the newest hottest rookie. Why shouldn't my
smarts make me money? Why does eveyone want a guys rookie card AFTER he makes it big? If someone is too dumb to figure
out who is for real and how is "toe nash", then they deserve to lose money!
This is a HUGE segment of the hobby. These "collectors" buy HUGE amounts of wax, run huge amounts of auctions and spend
huge amounts of money on grading these cards. What...now everyone is going to have to wait until a guy is hot in order to
pick up his card...and what.. spend full price on competing with everyone else becuase the card has only been out a month????
That will not go over well. This is not how the rookie card market has been run. If there is no thrill of the chase then you might as
well kill it.
...and what is the trade-off?? Is it so much better so as to offset the great loss of DLP's baseball products including autographs of
Koufax, Mays and Aaron?? To offset the hundreds of collectors who will no longer spend any money in the rookie card avenues of
wax, grading & auctions? Will it be greater to offset the fun of taking my 7 year old boy to a minor league game and watch him
at the fence trying to get a graph from a young up and coming ball player on a baseball card??
I think not.
JS
I don't see why there's a necessary connection between prospecting and buying cards of guys who are still playing in the Rookie league.
Agreed. Sorry, but I think it's just more fun that way. Others are obviously welcome to disagree, but I'm looking forward to the change.
The thrust of the changes that were made were driven by card shop input - people that get "stuck" with tons of product that is worth less on delivery than what they paid for it.
I understand your feeling on RC prospects and speculating. I did it for a long time - it was fun - it was annoying - it was exciting - it was unnerving - but for many in the hobby, that's what gives them the rush they need.
We'll just have to see - but we won't know till 2007 or 8 if you are correct and see if "skylab" landed on dad's Edsel!LOL
mike
edit: I never thought that this thread would get this much reaction! It's great to discuss cards!
Thanx!
That's a fascinating angle, and one I never thought of. But it makes total sense. Whether we like it or not, card shops still do play a role in today's hobby, and sticking them with $1000's of dollars worth of dead product can't be good for business.
nothing like that. 100 bucks could buy me 30 complete sets back then, today you're lucky if you can buy a box for
that.
The hobby thrives on intrest. When players do well people want those players and they spend money, wether its in the form
of wax, or in the form of 10 cards I put on ebay, they are putting money into the hobby. Thats good. If guys are prospecting
for a few years thats a lot of money and a lot of intrest. Thats good for the hobby..but now that is gone.
If you are a hermit and live under a rock and just pick up what you want when you want, then that is fine, you will never understand
my point, until you are looking for the new hottest rookie next year and are wondering why you have to pay 10 times what you paid
last year for it!
Has anyone on this forum busted a box of bow chrome recently?? You may not think this will affect you, but it all filters down...if guys don't
get excited about players who play now, how are they supposed to show intrest in your cards from the 60's??
JS
stuck with 22 boxes of MVP......Upper Deck does this every year...and they get to keep making cards??????
explain that
You're still not addressing my central point. How is speculating on a guy in Rookie Ball any different than speculating on a guy who just made the roster out of spring training, EXCEPT for the fact that in the first case you have to wait 3 years to see if your speculation pans out? Or, in other words, what does the manufacturing of cards depicting minor league players do for the hobby that the manufacturing of cards of players who just made the team does not?
I'm not sure but what % of the modern collectors are involved in the RC prospect hunt - I was never lucky but what you say is true. I remember hoping I would pull a Pujols auto RC but no deal!
As reflected on ebay - I think most of the kids with money are RC chasers - looking for the one (or more) big score?
It will simplify the hobby alright - but as you say - at what price?
mike
At the price of not being stuck with a bunch of worthless Josh Hamilton slabs.
<< <i>"It will simplify the hobby alright - but as you say - at what price?"
At the price of not being stuck with a bunch of worthless Josh Hamilton slabs. >>
Boo
I agree!
Kevin is thinking the modern card market will implode without the prospects to chase. Chasing them when they come to the majors is not enough for these guys - they like to see the guys name in print and then follow them up thru the farms and then to the big dance - and after a few wins or HRs - BAM - up on ebay and big bucks! Gotta love it.
Kevin - remember when Beachbum was heavily touting Cole Hamels?
mike
Hamilton's stuff was never cheap, so anyone who bought it really got hammered. I think any player is at risk to get busted for
drugs...we can't control that. Did you actually follow his career up to the drug bust? If you had you would of slimmed down your
collection after watching him in low-a ball.
I think you are missing the point as far as the when to release a rookie card. If a card is on the market 3 years before a player hits
that card brings more money into the hobby. If it has been out 2 months it doesn' bring as much in. Guys have been doing this
for years now, this isn't some new phenomenon. This is why the baseball market is so booming now. These guys have had cards
for over a year now. There has been action, people know these cards, some have slept with them under their pillow.. thats good
We don't have time for topps or UD to figure out who these guys are the then print their cards up....by that time the thrill is gone..
the guy could of gone 0-10 or have given up 8 runs in 2 innings....its all about the ascent. If you have never been there, you won't understand
this, if the last time you looked at rookie cards was 99 then you are missing the big picture.
So you like to collect guys rookie cards the year they come up to the bigs, great, but I ( and many many others) like to collect a guy
when he is in the minors...whats wrong with that?? Is the MLB simplifying the format so the dumb people arn't left out? Maybe they
want us all dumb?? Just walking wallets who won't stand up and demand better products, or better cs or better ideas.
Its all making sense now!
JS
If making the RC designator to clear up which cards are true RC's - "dumbing down" the situation - it's a done deal anyway.
Doing what you described, buying and selling prospects, is a lot of fun for masses of people.
In a manner, it's part science and part intuition and lastly part gambling on a player's performance.
So in the end, gamblers will do what gamblers do - Gamble. They will find a way to make it more exciting - people will just start "speculating" on the prospects that are either subsets or inserts in the Bowman products.
Where there's a will, there's a way/wager.
mike
Back in 1980 there was only ONE major set and rookie card, in 81 we had 3 majors and perhaps the Topps Traded might be included as well. As years went on, more and more sets, inserts, parallels, GUs, and such were added.
The hobby, regardless of how many companies produce, will never be the same, however I am sure there will still be many collectors, investors, and those intermediate. People have changed as well, better standards of living, TV, the internet, more sports, Etc., have made the collectors realize there are more choices available. Kids have not been the real core of collectors for many years, they will probably not become so in the future no matter how the cards are dealt, produced that is.
The "good old days" were maybe not quite as good as one thinks. It was mentioned you could spend $ 100 and get about 30 complete sets back in 79 or 80, that is incorrect. Each new set was about $ 18 to $30 back then ( depended on the seller ), but most things go up via inflation, a new car was possible for about a quarter of today's prices. Before 1980 price guides were in infancy, national conventions started, collectors had basically only the mail to interact with, unless you lived close to another avid collector. In 1980 if you saved baseball you HAD to collect Topps, in 1990 you had five majors along with traded, updated, rack-inserts, Tiffany, glossy, and the like, to select from. In 2000 you had even more choices. 2006 will not be anywhere near 1980. Is that better ?, worse?, only time will tell.
This may be why there are so many modern products that focus on veteran or established players - so collectors will pull cards of people they actually want to collect. I realize this is "dumbing down" the hobby to an extent, but it may be necessary for it's long term survival.