$10K for Barry Bonds or Willie Mays...

JackWESQ · July 12, 2005 12:23PM

Dear Group,
Tonight, a 1986 Topps Tiffany Barry Bonds BGS 10 sold for $10,611.00.
Here's the link.

1986 Topps Tiffany Barry Bonds BGS 10

Back on March 23, 2005, a 1953 Topps Willie Mays PSA 8 sold for $10,099.35.
Here's the link.

1953 Topps Willie Mays PSA 8

I have a couple questions for this educated group. Do you think the Bonds
was overpaid? Do you think it is a good investment? Between the two, which
card would you rather have? For me, I'd have to pick the Willie Mays. Which
one do you think is the better long term investment? Thanks for your thoughts.

/s/ JackWESQ

zef204 · July 12, 2005 12:41PM

I think any 10's are way over priced. I would rather have 10 9's of that card than one 10 because on a given day any one of those 9's might get a 10.

As far as investment, I don't think thats even a question. There are FAR fewer 53 Mays in 8 condition than any 1986 bonds card. I don't think anyone here would pick the Bonds.

Mac53 · July 12, 2005 12:54PM

I don't know, I don't have any real experience, but my common sense tells me that something has gone out of control here. Neither of these cards can possibly be worth this price. That said, I would rather have the Mays, but certainly not at that price.

dallasactuary · July 12, 2005 1:04PM

<< Which one do you think is the better long term investment? >>

Here's what my crystal ball shows the prices of those two cards will be on ebay in the year 2020:

1953 Mays: $20,000

1986 Bonds: $800

A free psychic reading for anyone even considering "investing" in a 1986 baseball card.

williplett · July 12, 2005 1:19PM

10K for an 86 Bonds? Yikes. How it made it in a pristine holder with that centering and rough cut is interesting. Gimme the Mays any day of the week.

iamthegreatcornholio · July 12, 2005 1:23PM

the first thing i see of this "pristine card" is that it's not 50-50... perfect my ass...

give me the say-hey kid!

VintageJeff · July 12, 2005 2:27PM

That is retarded and a classic case of buying the holder and not the card. Nobody in their right mind would buy that card for more than $10,000. One look at that card says that it most likely couldn't even cross to a psa 10 so this moron just paid $10,000 for an ugly PSA 9 1986 Topps card.

67standup · July 12, 2005 2:49PM

This is a glaring example of what's wrong with this hobby.

Another ~$3000, and you have a low grade '33 Goudey Lajoie.

ctsoxfan · July 12, 2005 2:54PM

<< This is a glaring example of what's wrong with this hobby. >>

Couldn't have said it any better than that.

SoFLPhillyFan · July 12, 2005 8:03PM

I would take the Mays any day.

Also - PSA would not have given the Bonds a 10. Not much difference between these two. The 9 used to be mine. Blew it up a bit, but let's assume that the focus was dead on and the corners were fine (they would have to be for a 9).

Stingray · July 12, 2005 8:28PM

The joke of the whole 10 grading scale and the 4 subsets is that is really not a 10 but a 9.875! This would be more on par with an SGC 98 and not a SGC 100.

Stingray

jrdolan · July 12, 2005 10:15PM

That Bonds is just an extreme example of the cliff that's being walked off by many unfortunate collectors in Beckett Nation. Their fate was sealed when Beckett decided that putting many more BGS 9.5's and 10's on the market was the best business plan for itself and its dealers.

The submitter of that Bonds was lazy. Ten seconds with an X-acto and he could have had a 10 subgrade on centering, too.

EagleEyeKid · July 13, 2005 3:42AM

Didn't a regular Topps Traded BGS 10 (not tiffany) sell for $24k several months back before baseball season started and before the news of Bonds' injuries? I think the seller was jaysace.

Gimme the Mays any day. I didn't realize fuzz and rough cut counts as a pristine edges.

baseballfanatic · July 13, 2005 5:03AM

The 10K Bonds only has one way to go, and that is the way of the 100K Tiger Woods, the 60K Michael Jordan, etc, etc.....

Ahmanfan · July 13, 2005 8:46AM

It seems goofy that people just pick one or 2 companies to stick to and bash the other one or 2... on here all I see are the 'trimmed bgs, sheet cut bgs' bull... on Net 54 all I see are the 'trimmed PSA, overgraded PSA' bull, on the beckett board... well nobody has vintage over there so I dont frequent it. Seems like we can't even have any posts of high dollar items without a snide comment about the grading company. It's pretty rediculous.

John Barnes

zef204 · July 13, 2005 8:54AM

Ahman I think you are missing the point. Its that 10k was paid for a 1986 Bonds regardless of what company graded it that is ludicrous.

As far as Becket grading sheet cut cards, that actually is a fact and therefore it should not be construed as bashing.

Ahmanfan · July 13, 2005 9:06AM

Yes the 10k is very unbelievable, I just get tired of every post having a BGS or (sometimes) SGC graded card, there just always has to have a problem with it! Same way on Net54 with PSA cards! It just gets old...

67standup · July 13, 2005 1:00PM

<< Yes the 10k is very unbelievable, I just get tired of every post having a BGS or (sometimes) SGC graded card, there just always has to have a problem with it! Same way on Net54 with PSA cards! It just gets old... >>

I don't read too many such posts, but I'm sure that you're correct.

I never faulted the grade, grading company, etc., just the gambling mentality that plagues this hobby. Gee if a Ruth rookie sells for $100K, then I'm gonna be a smart guy and get in on the ground floor of Bonds, Tiger, etc. Collecting is about to each their own, this is just a lame investment choice (and this sale was all about the money, not the aesthetic beauty of the card.) A "pristine", "gem" Bonds rookie, who the F cares, it's from 1986!

HoofHearted · July 13, 2005 1:16PM

JackWEsq asked,

"Do you think the Bonds was overpaid?" Hail Yes!!

"Do you think it is a good investment?" Hail No!!

"Between the two, which card would you rather have?" Definitely a '53 Willie for me, no matter who graded it!!

"Which one do you think is the better long term investment?" No contest -- the Willie. I so much more admire Mr. Mays than Mr. Bonds it's not funny -- even if he is his godson.

67Standup, do you know where the Rock Bottom Brewery is in Stumptown? I work close to there and will be tipping a Hefe or two tomorrow after work if you want to meet there. I'll be wearing the MN Twins (away) hat! I've got a 2-week vacation starting Fri., so I'll be in the mood to celebrate! Hopefully there'll be a good (Twins!) game on one of the TVs...

hh

iamthegreatcornholio · July 13, 2005 1:18PM

here we go again

VintageJeff · July 13, 2005 1:33PM

"EXTREMELY RARE BGS PRISTINE 10"

So rare we have had two on ebay in the last two days!!! Wow i'm rushing to get these.

67standup · July 13, 2005 1:48PM

Mike, you live in Portland, or just visiting? I know the place, but have a work dinner until about 9:00, or else I'd join you. Let's hook up sometime, there's a few other boardmembers who live in the area.

jrdolan · July 13, 2005 1:50PM

<< here we go again >>

Yup. And there's more where that came from.

ctsoxfan · July 13, 2005 1:52PM

It's tough to tell from the tiny scans in the second auction, but that card looks even worse than the first one. Centering still looks off, both front and back. Not that it matters much, but it just adds to how ridiculous this is. Even if it was centered perfectly down to the exact last pixel, I just am amazed at how quickly a fool and his money are soon parted...

HoofHearted · July 13, 2005 1:53PM

67,

I'd enjoy meeting some fellow collectors. I just happened to remember you mentioned being from Portland.

I get funny looks when I start talking about my cards at work, so it would be fun to connect with people who can relate! I work downtown and live on the westside.

(Sorry for the personal posts. I'll use the PM next time...)

hh

zef204 · July 13, 2005 2:05PM

Wow! I am thinking of sending my 2 into Beckett! Better yet I should e-mail the losing bidders on both auctions and offer them these 2 for the bargain price of $1000 each!

ctsoxfan · July 13, 2005 2:39PM

Zef, you could be a rich man! Looks to me like you got another "rare" BGS 10 Pristine right there on the left! But, the one on the right might only be a "kinda-rare" BGS 9.5 NotPristine due to slight centering. Send 'em in, man! There's probably 15 grand waiting for you!

sayheykid54 · July 13, 2005 9:53PM

Without question I would puchase the Willie Mays 1953 Topps Psa 8 card. Modern cards are relatively easy(compared to vintage) to obtain in high-grade. Vintage cards in high-grade look awesome and represent a sound long term investment.

VintageJeff · July 14, 2005 3:00AM

The really bad thing about this is this auction PSA 10 This card looks to be in better condition than either BGS 10 well at least as far as eye appeal and centering.

ctsoxfan · July 14, 2005 3:44AM

<< The really bad thing about this is this auction PSA 10 This card looks to be in better condition than either BGS 10 well at least as far as eye appeal and centering. >>

Amazing, isn't it? And, right now, that card is only at $123.50. Still about $123.49 more than I would pay for one, but it makes those BGS cards look even more ridiculous (if that was possible).

VintageJeff · July 14, 2005 3:48AM

<< 

<< The really bad thing about this is this auction PSA 10 This card looks to be in better condition than either BGS 10 well at least as far as eye appeal and centering. >>

Amazing, isn't it? And, right now, that card is only at $123.50. Still about $123.49 more than I would pay for one, but it makes those BGS cards look even more ridiculous (if that was possible). >>

Well to be fair the others were 1986 Topps Tiffany Update and this is a regular Topps Update but who the F cares? And to me the PSA 10 is the better looking card of the three. But there is no reasoning with fools that have money to burn. It' a card from freaking 1986!

VintageJeff · July 14, 2005 4:03AM

Now we can compare Apples to Apples 1986 Topps Tiffany Traded Barry Bonds PSA 10

Tabe · July 14, 2005 8:38AM

While I wouldn't pay $10K for either card, as I'm not a fan of Mays or Bonds, there's no question I would choose a 1953 Mays like this one:

over a 1986 Topps Tiffany Traded Bonds like this one:

any day. 1953 Topps is one of the most beautiful sets ever. 1986 Topps Tiffany Traded? It's one of the most........uh........sets ever.

Tabe

Ahmanfan · July 14, 2005 8:55AM

I wonder why that psa 10 hasn't been cracked and submitted to BGS? Seems like that would be the logical choice to make if selling it.

Still can't believe those command the price they do. Must be a very condition sensitive set.

John Barnes

Brian48 · July 14, 2005 9:02AM

Here's another ridiculously overpriced 80's card. I like the card, but I'd never pay over $2300+ for it.

BGS 9.5 - 1985 Fleer Roger Clemens

How many millions of these did Fleer produce?

Brian48 · July 14, 2005 12:15PM

Woah. Bidding ended at $5100.00

iamthegreatcornholio · July 14, 2005 12:27PM

<< Woah. Bidding ended at $5100.00 >>

Damn... I want to change my vote in the poll of "'85 Rack Case - Which Do You Buy?" from Topps to Fleer...

Brian

VintageJeff · July 14, 2005 12:50PM

I'm really starting to think this is a scam being pulled off by Beckett to get more submissions of these cards. There is no rhyme or reason to this.

ctsoxfan · July 14, 2005 1:01PM

<< I'm really starting to think this is a scam being pulled off by Beckett to get more submissions of these cards. There is no rhyme or reason to this. >>

A lot of people here, myself included, have been saying exactly that for some time now - makes perfect sense if you think about it. There truly is no rhyme or reason, and in all of these cases, the only way for these cards to go in value is down. You have to believe that the Beckett hype machine is rolling out even more of these than ever, which hurts the already artificially inflated value. Who in the world would pay 5 grand for a 1985 Clemens card, clearly not a rare card by any stretch of the imagination, and what would that person's goal in buying the card be? Investment? Please....

jrdolan · July 14, 2005 2:44PM

Exactly. And the Beckett powers must be heartless indeed. They must understand what this will do to collectors who have paid so much money for these BGS 9.5's and 10's, believing the (very successful) marketing hype that these were very special and rare grades. The trap door is about to open under the feet of people who are STILL paying astronomical amounts for these now-commonplace grades, and they don't even know it. I would not want to be in their shoes as they watch BGS 10 after BGS 10 examples of their "rare" $10,000 card appear on eBay, selling for less and less each time.

But as somebody compained earlier, all this harping is "getting old" about the crash that's about to happen in Beckett-land. Probably is old by now, around here. Well, leave 'em to their fate, I guess. A lot of them, those who don't drop out of the hobby in disgust, will swing over to PSA and SGC-graded cards when the realization becomes widespread. That can only be good for collectors who never fell for it ... or got out in time.

Axtell · July 14, 2005 3:03PM

The buyer picked up a donruss BGS 9.5 for $310, but pays $5k for a fleer?

TimeMachine · July 14, 2005 3:09PM

The problem with the newer or "modern" cards like the '86 Bonds traded RC in the highest of high grades is that from an investment standpoint, you just cannot know how dilutive the supply can become, unlike, say, a stock where everyone knows the # of outstanding shares and are able to arrive at a realistic valuation or market multiple. However, with vintage graded material, they are like stocks that never split, the outstanding # of shares always known with little dilution if any ever occurs at all. Bubbles are indeed forming in the graded sportscard mkt, and the holders being affected the most seem to be BGS holders. Unfortunate, but apparent imo.

at least that's how I see it...

Ahmanfan · July 14, 2005 3:19PM

I looked at the Beckett population report, and out of 1274 graded, there is only 1 9.5 and 0 10's of the 1985 Fleer Clemens. A very rare grade indeed! Out of 11607 of the '86 Traded Bonds graded, there are only 5 10's. Out of 710 '86 Traded Tiffany Bonds graded, there are only 2 10's. It seems to me like BGS 10's are still very had to achieve, I dont see how they are 'rolling off the presses'. In comparison, psa has given out 10's to 2551 out of 36777 '86 Topps Traded Bonds RC's, which means 1 out of every 14 submitted to PSA garnered a grade or 10. Compared to BGS giving out 5 10's out of 11607 graded, which means 1 out of every 2321 submitted garnered a grade of BGS 10.

I'm beginning to see why people pay such huge money for BGS 10's.

By the way, I only own 2 Beckett graded cards, I'm not a fan of their services. Just trying to take the other side of the argument since almost everyone here seems to be pro-psa.

John Barnes

VintageJeff · July 14, 2005 3:45PM

<< I looked at the Beckett population report, and out of 1274 graded, there is only 1 9.5 and 0 10's of the 1985 Fleer Clemens. A very rare grade indeed! Out of 11607 of the '86 Traded Bonds graded, there are only 5 10's. Out of 710 '86 Traded Tiffany Bonds graded, there are only 2 10's. It seems to me like BGS 10's are still very had to achieve, I dont see how they are 'rolling off the presses'. In comparison, psa has given out 10's to 2551 out of 36777 '86 Topps Traded Bonds RC's, which means 1 out of every 14 submitted to PSA garnered a grade or 10. Compared to BGS giving out 5 10's out of 11607 graded, which means 1 out of every 2321 submitted garnered a grade of BGS 10.

I'm beginning to see why people pay such huge money for BGS 10's.

By the way, I only own 2 Beckett graded cards, I'm not a fan of their services. Just trying to take the other side of the argument since almost everyone here seems to be pro-psa.

John Barnes >>

I understand your point to a point. Ok they have given less cards their "10" grade but look at the quality of the "10's" i'm sorry they look like PSA 9's at least in eye appeal and centering. JMHO This could be a sign that they used to grade tougher but are lightening up a little? Wonder when these 10's were graded? Personally this is when the .5 point scale goes haywire 9.5 or 10 so is that half point worth thousands? It's bad enough in this market that the difference between a 9 and 10 is sometimes 10 fold or more. For god's sake any of those 9's could have been 10's for the most part.

VintageJeff · July 14, 2005 4:12PM

Was that 9.5 Clemens really worth $4937.47 more than this BGS 9 Clemens ?

jrdolan · July 15, 2005 1:04PM

There are only 2 BGS 10's of 86 Topps Traded Tiffany Bonds, and they are both on eBay within the same few days? Possible, I suppose, but it seems more likely that the Beckett pop report does not include recent grades. Seems to me there were only 2 of those many months ago, too, and the one I remember did not look like a PSA 8.

$10K for Barry Bonds or Willie Mays...

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