Anyone else see the eBay auction for a set of 3 Wisconsin "extra leaves" quarters found at

CoinHusker

Saw this auction and thought I'd pass it on. Seller says he works at a financial institution and the "extra leaves" coins come from a "local bank in Kerrville, TX". He has a real nice, clear picture too.

linky dinky

cladking

Great!!!

All this variety really needs is to show up in somewhat larger numbers. There are
still a lot of these in the pipeline so they may yet show up in the kind of numbers
necessary to spark widespread interest.

alergar

There has to be at least one die used to strike each variety so that is approximately 100,000 of each. Since the error has been announced many of these will be cherry picked and there should be allot of them kept in MS condition. They are a variety, but will most likely not be a real rarity.

thebeav

Somebody hit the BIN at 2 beans !!! WHEW......

Paul

CoinHusker

WOW! That was fast. I think he had a couple of other sets for sale too. With that kind of picture it would be a stretch for me to take that leap of faith.

edit to add: Somebody speculating on having the first "Kerrville" extra leaves?

Looks like Kerrville is 280 miles or so west of Houston. Coincidence these showing up with the money show going on down the road.

CoinHusker

Anyone know the buyer?

Plato

<< <i>coins come from a "local bank in Kerrville, TX" >>




<< <i> There has to be at least one die used to strike each variety so that is approximately 100,000 of each. >>



Is a speculative bubble about to burst?

Tulips anyone?

LALASD4

Is a speculative bubble about to burst?

Tulips anyone?


No thanks, I brought and sold my tulips already.

CoinHusker

<< <i>Is a speculative bubble about to burst? >>



Be nice if a boardmember won them and then commented on what they actually got.

I wonder why more "Kerrville" quarters aren't showing up though.

dpoole

<< <i>Tulips anyone? >>



This isn't tulips. The tulip parable has to do with people ascribing value to otherwise common items, and bidding them up on a speculative basis.

In this case, there is a new discovery of a dramatic variety, and the potential exists that it might be a rarity. Might not, but might. What's so rare about a tulip?

Com'on Plato. Don't be so jaded!

Oh, and this is kewl! I thiought all these things were supposed to be in Tucson. Kerrville's just down the road from Austin. Think I'll head over there tomorrow with my metal detector...

Plato

<< <i>Don't be so jaded! >>



I think you are overreacting, I simply asked a question.

If there are 100,000 of them then is that a dramatic discovery? Just asking, please don't be offended. Come on over to the Stamps Forum and mellow out.

Coin Finder

I emailed the seller and here was there response:

Yes, absolutly these are the real deal- please do not worry. You will receive three uncirculated brand new Wisconsin quarters- one of the original, one with the "up leaf", and one with the "down leaf". I am not one to try to rip people off- not implying that you said I was. You will not be disapointed. I will be selling 8 more sets in the next few hours. Thanks.

Jeremy (sapoktown)

LALASD4

The seller has this on the description:

Unfortunatly insurance is not available through UPS or USPS on coins- I don't know why.

This sounds a little funny to me.

dpoole

<< <i>I think you are overreacting, I simply asked a question. >>



Sorry, Plato. It sounded like you were raining on the parade.

It's just that if coin collectors can't get excited and fired up about a new discovery of a major variety in a popular series, when CAN we cet excited and fired up?

Of course, such discoveries are always accompanied by hype, and maybe some have dreams of hitting the big one, and loading up on the next 55DDO. Maybe others just want to have one because it looks cool, and are willing to pay the early hype money to get a specimen. As always, caveat emptor and you need to know what you're about. Cautioning people to keep there heads (which is perhaps what you intended) is a valued contribution from old-timers like yourself. I just thought that your comment about "speculative bubble" was premature to say the least, and I didn't perceive the tone was "simply asking a question."

But since it was, I apologize for jumping the gun on you.

RickMilauskas

Hey..it may be true about not being able to purchase insurance on coins in the mail

- unless you send it registered mail or don't tell them there are coins inside your package.

I've had this experience...

There is an employee at my post office that does everything by the book and can be a giant pain in the buttocks.

He asks a lot of questions and if you tell him you are mailing coins he will not let you purchase insurance unless you
send it registered mail and pay a king's ransom.

The other employees don't seem to care what you are mailing but he views himself as 'Mr. postal regulations" and turns everything in a big production. He made one guys life miserable over sending a video tape beacuse it wasn't a book and he wouldn't let him send it media mail.

I made the mistake of "spilling the beans" that I was mailing some coins and he totally repackaged one of my packages with brown paper box tape and them charged me registered mail fees for a roll of common date quarters. It ended up being 5 times more expensive.

Needless to say, I refuse to go to him anymore.

Bochiman

It would be cool if more are found (and, that is coming from someone who just ponied up a few bills to get 1 set).
Maybe I should have bought a few more sets and sold them on ebay along with pics of a few rolls picked up in Seattle...just to throw people around here for a loop
(can you imagine Russ going through modern quarter rolls? )

CoinHusker

<< <i>I emailed the seller and here was there response:

Yes, absolutly these are the real deal- please do not worry. You will receive three uncirculated brand new Wisconsin quarters- one of the original, one with the "up leaf", and one with the "down leaf". I am not one to try to rip people off- not implying that you said I was. You will not be disapointed. I will be selling 8 more sets in the next few hours. Thanks.

Jeremy (sapoktown) >>



Why didn't I think of that? It would be nice if someone could verify the "find".

notlogical

Those fuzzy pictures make we wonder

Russ

<< <i>He asks a lot of questions and if you tell him you are mailing coins he will not let you purchase insurance unless you
send it registered mail and pay a king's ransom. >>



That particular postal employee is full of crap. Early last year they lost a coin I shipped First Class insured. I filed the claim, they paid up.

Russ, NCNE

pharmer

That postal sob can only get away with that attitude if you let him. We have one of those, it shocks him when I refuse to say what it is, and add "you don't want them coming to your door if it goes missing, do you?" Try it, you'll feel better, and make his day bleak like he does to others

joeyuk

I had a claim paid recently for a certified coin. I used a copy of the e-bay sale as proof of value.
It was over $50 so the claim had to go thru the main office in St. Louis. * months later I received the check.

Cash I believe can not be insured.

CoinHusker

He has since listed a number of other sets. Does anyone know any of the buyers? It will be interesting to hear the story on these.

Coin Finder

I am a buyer on one set. I will give a full report when they arrive. I know I am risking $200.00. I think the eduation for all of us might be worth it.

Tbig

EagleEye

Anyone ask him if more were found? I would think finding a few in TX would start a rush there too. If he works in a Financial Institution that got these, there should be a good story to go with it.

BTW, tell him It's TUCSON, not Tuscon.

Coin Finder

I got the in the mail today postmarker from Kerrville Texas one high leaf and one low leaf Wisonson 2004 d quarter. They are identical to the ones I got from Arizona.


I contacted the seller via email and he has yet to respond. I will leave POs feedback. I marked the 2 by 2 holders "texas" I have four sets all identical under a 15 power loop.

What could this mean?

Tbig

dthigpen

Wow. $200 for $0.75 in modern pocket change. Good stuff.

Tootawl

He has another set of three up for bids.

Bochiman

<< <i>Wow. $200 for $0.75 in modern pocket change. Good stuff. >>



Yeah...and in 1955, how much were the DDO Lincolns going for? They were certainly modern at the time, weren't they?

I wasn't around then and am having to try to get one now...gonna run me roughly $2000 for what I am after...and that won't be near MS63+

Modern bashing is sooooooo old................

CoinHusker

<< <i> They are identical to the ones I got from Arizona.
I marked the 2 by 2 holders "texas" >>




Just wondering if it will matter where they were found or if just the varieties is what is important?

Coin Finder

Here is his email response to me:


Hey Mark, no we really only found the majority of them last week and we've gone through all of our quarters we had and tried to buy as much as we could from all the other banks in town, so I would have to say that they have almost dried up here. I'm not real sure if we'll get more from fed or not but I doubt they would have any of the rare coins. Actually the way we found out about them is when an old man came in and asked for all the rolled Wisconsin quarters we had. Well he ended up buying about $180 worth and we asked him why he wanted so many and then that's when he told us what was going on. That single individual just from our bank I beleive found 32 rare coins. We went through all the ones left that he didn't buy and found about 12 more rare coins. And then started going to all the local banks in our town and nearby towns. I will for sure keep looking for them but I think it has more or less calmed down. How about in Tuscan? Are they still finding them there or has it calmed down? It's kinda weird that they were only delivered to Tuscan and here, because I assume Tuscan is a fairly large city and Kerrville is pretty small- only about 20,000 people and as far as anyone has heard no one in between has found them.
Jeremy

--- THEBIGENG@aol.com wrote:

From: THEBIGENG@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:22:28 EST
To: jeremytaylor@muchomail.com
Subject: Fwd: Item #3955201094 - Notification of an Instant Payment Received from larg...

Hey Jeremy quick question, are there more being found there every day? Are the locals looking for these or are these the only ones found? I assume you work for a Bank that rolls coins from the mint.

Thanks

Mark


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pines

Interesting that these seem to have shown up in Texas! Makes one wonder what else is out there. Is there anyway to know if the mint would have gone thru most of the supply of Denver WI rolls by now? I struggle with myself trying to figure what could be out there. After seeing these myself this seems to be something that would have been with the die throughout its usefull life(40,000 quarters?) not something that happened to the die part way through striking quarters. We have to be talking about two seperate die here. Maybe there was a large quantity that was put into circulation before Mr Ford discovered these. They could just be out in circulation around parts of the country undiscovered. I think the vast majority of the population does not yet know about these. I know here in my part of WI nobody I have mentioned it to has heard about it before. If they are not out there in large quantity then it would seem they are yet to come from new WI quarters being sent into circulation....If not then I can only assume the quarters were produced during some short run with these die...intentional or not. Help me out here...I am new at this!

lloydmincy

Can't anyone spell Tucson??? No respect for Rick Snow and his town!

CoinOnTheCob

If this is a die gouge, couldn’t that mean that there are many more to come before they retire the dies? I’m curious.
Dennis

Edited to say: I should have read more carefully Pines' post.

Coinhusker1

<< <i>Can't anyone spell Tucson??? No respect for Rick Snow and his town! >>



Tucson Tucson Tucson Tucson

Second largest city in Arizona
Home of the University of Arizona

Never been there, heard it's nice!!

CoinOnTheCob

I went to the bank today in my town of Roseville, CA and asked if they had any Wisconsin-D quarter rolls. Not a single one. I guess the word is out. Either that or the teller thought that my account balance didn’t warrant the effort to look. Dang.

EagleEye

These came out in the November 29th shipment from the Mint. I think at this point it does not much matter where they come from, but in what quantity. Also, I don't think it matters what the exact cause is because it appears to have extra leaves. If the curved arcs were in the cheeze, it wouldn't be so neat. (Just like the 3-legged Buffalo appears to have 3 legs - if the over-polishing was anywhere else on the die and not obliterating the leg, no one would care).

It seems that they have all but dried up in TUCSON (the C is silent). I think that I'm going to revise my survival estimates a tad higher to:

1250 high leaf
2000 low leaf.

My estimates on the eventual NGC 3-piece set populations:
MS-64 1-20
MS-65 40-75
MS-66 150-200
MS-67 30-40
MS-68 3-5

And my estimates of the eventual PCGS populations:
PCGS Low leaf
MS-64 200-300
MS-65 250-400
MS-66 20-50
MS-67 1-10

PCGS High leaf
MS-64 150-250
MS-65 200-300
MS-66 25-50
MS-67 1-10

These are projected off of the percentage that I got, and what I excpect others who submitted them will get. This is not what has already been graded (figure 1/4 of these numbers for that)

Coin Finder

Rick I have spoken to a very knowledgeable gentleman with die making experience. He knows a lot about the mints working dies. He saw these coins and has no doubt it is on the die. "you have to think in reverse" he says, this was done after hubbing before striking. He says the ave die for the states quarters are about 40,000 strikes per die "before they start looking ratty." The Denver Mint is especially picky according to him. Assuming these are die alterations by a mint employee or some such thing, your estimates seem low, unless an entire die run was not consummated.

Thoughts?

Tbig

clackamas

<< <i>Rick I have spoken to a very knowledgeable gentleman with die making experience. He knows a lot about the mints working dies. He saw these coins and has no doubt it is on the die. "you have to think in reverse" he says, this was done after hubbing before striking. He says the ave die for the states quarters are about 40,000 strikes per die "before they start looking ratty." The Denver Mint is especially picky according to him. Assuming these are die alterations by a mint employee or some such thing, your estimates seem low, unless an entire die run was not consummated.

Thoughts?
Tbig >>



I don't agree, when looking at the low leaf variety either this was on the hub or on the die prior to it being hubbed. Really I think this had to be on the hub and engraved into the die. When you look at it under magnification it is just like all the other elements with regards to luster.

If these are showing up in other locals then very few people know about it and most of these will be circulated before being discovered.

The other thing you have to consider is the fact that 1 is nearly twice as common suggesting that there were 2 dies of 1 variety and 1 of the other. This could only occur if the hub had the error.

Coin Finder

Hey Clackamas good to here from you. This guys opinion is that the working die left the master die unaltered. The working die is incuse (recessed) so as to leave a relief (raised) design on the coin. The lower leaf variety shows the leaf base Underneath the original design. On a working die this would be on top or over the intended design. Someone with a very powerful microscope could look at one of these coins and look for signs of tooling and if they are good even tie it to a specific mint tool. Every tool mark leaves a trace of itself under high powered vision.

I hope the mint takes a good look at this stuff. It is kinda interesting to some of us.


As for the frequency of one over the other, might I suggest the high leaf was a first attempt at a extra leaf and it look bad so the employee pulled it off the line early and then made a better attempt and let the baby fly!

Tbig

PS you could be right on!

EagleEye

thebigeng:
Your source is correct, this is a die variety. Hubs are raised, just like the finished coin, so any impression on the hub would produce a similar artifact on the coin. As to the cause, my theory is a hub-through, where something got impressed into the die during the die making process. However, at the base of the low leaf variety you see the detail of the extra leaf only on the lower relief areas. There is a point where the leaf of the original design interupts the extra leaf (at the base). This is not consistent with the hub-through theory. So I'm still wondering. The die gouge theory is also problematic. the detail of both extra leaf varieties flows too well into the field to be a tooling mark. Also the curvature of the extra leaves is about equal on both varieties. This is an important clue, but I'm still not sure how it was caused.


My estimates are based on the number known, not the typical die life.

EagleEye

One additional thought as to the number produced.

These were found in the November 29th delivery. It was just reported that the Wisconsin Quarters have the second lowed mintage yet because none were made in December. Could these have been made on the last day of production? If so, then the dies could have been retired early - not becaue of wear, but because of the end of the press run.