Open question to Russ and Dheath.................

INXS

Both of your coins are very nice. Why, if you care to answer and I understand if you dont, have your coins graded by NGC is there any advantage to have certain coins graded by one company and others graded by another company?

Thanks

Russ

Let me put it this way. The coin I posted came from one of two submissions I sent to NGC weeks after submissions I sent to PCGS. Both NGC submissions are back. PCGS submissions are still in getting moldy.

Russ, NCNE

tmot99

Russ, do you feel that your coin (specifically mentioned rather than a generic "a coin") graded by NGC quickly versus PCGS brings the same value? I am curious in that I have a very nice 1964 AH probably 67CAM that I am thinking of sending to NGC.

100proof1957

I really wanna hear this answer !

Russ

<< <i>graded by NGC quickly versus PCGS brings the same value? >>



No, in early date Kennedy Halves NGC graded coins bring substantially less than PCGS graded coins.

Russ, NCNE

JrGMan2004

<< <i>

<< <i>graded by NGC quickly versus PCGS brings the same value? >>



No, in early date Kennedy Halves NGC graded coins bring substantially less than PCGS graded coins.

Russ, NCNE >>

It becomes how much is your time worth... is the extra time in sending it to PCGS worth the added value over sending the coin to NGC?

keets

the general line of thinking is simple and has been expressed many times. while NGC may tend to grade one point higher than PCGS the prices for the two are similar. regardless of that fact, it all revolves around money. from a sellers/dealers point of view where the money made by flipping is the bottom line, it makes sense to get a coin back from NGC quicker.

al h.

100proof1957

Russ,

How do you think the grades compare ?

100proof1957

Keets,

Your stance is this ?

PR67CAM PCGS is the same as a PR68CAM NGC.

Russ

<< <i>Russ,

How do you think the grades compare ? >>



For these coins, there is no simple answer to that question because of the slightly different emphasis between the two services. There are PCGS DCAMs that would not receive the UCAM designation at NGC, and there are NGC UCAMs that would not receive the DCAM designation at PCGS. Then there are coins that are a lock at either service.

As far as the grade itself, both of the 1964 PF69UCAMs I just made at NGC would also be PR69 by PCGS standards.

Russ, NCNE

100proof1957

Russ,

you think the last 2 ucams are dcams at pcgs,or just 69 cams ?

whats the price diff ?

keets

Keets,

Your stance is this ? PR67CAM PCGS is the same as a PR68CAM NGC.

hey 100

for the series' that i collect, that's been my experience. there is often a one point difference in grade and NGC tends to designate Cameo more often. as Russ posted, some are locks at both and some are a toss-up at either, nothing is certain. what i stated is what most submitters have stated in the past and it refers to submitters like MadMarty who is submitting mainly for resale. the deciding factor is how quickly coins are graded to keep the money flowing. while i sell, that isn't why i submit. my choice of who i send to for holdering is based on Registry sets i have at PCGS, uniformity of my own personal sets and some material that certain services will/will not holder.

al h.

Russ

<< <i>Russ,

you think the last 2 ucams are dcams at pcgs,or just 69 cams ? >>



One is, one isn't.



<< <i>whats the price diff >>



The last NGC to sell on Teletrade, (a couple days ago), brought $825 before the juice. PCGS graded would bring $1200 or so.

Russ, NCNE

100proof1957

Keets,

Seems like you are somewhat of a Jefferson specialist.

I own a 57 PR68 CAM NGC,i had a 64 PR68 CAM PCGS,virtual twins,except for the date i could not separate the 2 coins.

Whats your take on that ?

PhillyJoe

Truth be told, Russ, Marty, Don, and myself are all getting up there in years. Our memory is not what it used to be. Russ probably forgets half the coins he sent to pcgs back in the fall; while the Thanksgiving submissions to NGC are already for ebay.

The nice thing about losing your memory is meeting new friends every day.

Joe
(new icon because I forget what the old one was.:confused

IrishMike

One of the things you have to consider is the investment side of the prices as a collector. If you buy two PCGS coins they will cost you $3600 approx. and for the same money you can buy 3 NGC coins. So it may matter very little, the pricing difference, i.e. No one can quantify how much the registry game versus the actual if any grading difference between the two services matters on pricing. If as some suggest there is currently little difference between the two services it complicates it even further. No one can predict with absolute certainty where the registry growth will go, how much it will increase and whether the NGC registry will expand enough to cause a similar impact on prices by increase in demand.

DHeath

Keets,

The invoice prior to this one (two mos ago), I cracked the coins out of NGC plastic and submitted them to PCGS just for experience points. 4 of the 6 upgraded, and 2 got improved designations. Marty's crossover rate for moderns has been around 70%.

INXS, I like NGC's service. They're fast, and generally fair. I only holder coins I intend to sell, so those went to market. I could have increased their value if I'd have crossed them, but I didn't feel like worrying about them. The buyers got some very nice material at a fair price, and if they feel like crossing them, it'll be their gain.

DHeath

The nice thing about losing your memory is meeting new friends every day.


Joe......

100proof1957

we all know that grading is highly subjective.

The market perception is that PCGS is far superior to NGC,why is that ?

People are buying the slab,not the coin ?

From a dealer stand point,would you not be better served when making raw coins to spend the extra bucks at PCGS to increase profits ?

Unless you are running on a shoestring,cash wise,in which case maybe you are in the wrong biz !

Ex: the NGC Ken is worth 825.00 and the PCGS is worth 1200.00,you walk it through for 100-150 and pick up an extra 2 hunnys ?

pharmer

Great thread, thanks all for the informative posts. My first NGC submission went in eight days ago, looking forward to the turnaround time aspect.

Russ

<< <i>The market perception is that PCGS is far superior to NGC,why is that ? >>



Because for a while it was true - if one defines "superior" as tighter grading. That gap has narrowed substantially and is beginning to be reflected in the narrowing of the pricing gap. The other factor, which has nothing to do with grading standards, is the popularity of the PCGS registry.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

<< <i>My first NGC submission went in eight days ago, looking forward to the turnaround time aspect. >>



That means you'll soon be getting a Danny eMail™.

Russ, NCNE

100proof1957

I suppose its time to buy PQ NGC coins and cross them to PCGS for instant profits ? (unless 90 days is not instant)

If you use the Cu price guide (joke) you should be able to buy NGC coins for 10-20 cents on the dollar !

4 of my 5 NGC Registry coins are at PCGS for cross over,should return about mid FEB,gonna be interesting !

DHeath

Ex: the NGC Ken is worth 825.00 and the PCGS is worth 1200.00,you walk it through for 100-150 and pick up an extra 2 hunnys ?

For me, it's a hobby. My day job keeps me pretty busy. I don't feel like dinking with dupes for 6 mos trying to get someone to pay the last hundred, so I'll leave that to the pros. I'm happier just turning them back into cash. That invoice netted around $2000 profit if I don't consider my sweat equity.

LeeG

When I'm looking for a coin to purchase, whether Raw or Slabbed, I look first at "Eye Appeal". A coin with great "Eye Appeal" will sell itself no matter what "Slab" it's in. Here recently I've been finding really outstanding Kennedy's in NGC Slabs. I think the reason for this is the slow PCGS turnaround times. More quality coins are going to NGC now. I'm not a Dealer so I have no plans on selling any of my coins. I try to be consistent in my purchases. "Eye Appeal", "Eye Appeal", "Eye Appeal"!!!! Then I look at rarity, pops, etc., as they relate to cost and sustained value. I think I've done pretty well so far, but, only time will tell. I'd like to show a couple examples (not mine) of recent Kennedy sales. You be the judge of which of the same year, and grade, coins are a better value. Just my 2 cents, Lee


SOLD 09/14 For $120.75





SOLD 09/07 For $112.70





SOLD 10/19 For $115





SOLD 12/13 For $249.55

RGL

Nice JFKs! On Jeff proofs, the series in which I am most conversant, NGC typically is a point higher on grade and more lenient with CAM/DCAM designation. That said, PCGS can often be ridiculous in awarding CAM/DCAM on deserving Jeff proofs. It as if Jeffs are held to the same CAM/DCAM standards as the silver coins and, given the hardness of the metal and its properties, it can be darn difficult to find Jeffs that display the same contrast as silver, in fact, they are very elusive. There needs to be some recognition on PCGS' part that copper and nickel will not, and generally do not, deliver the same contrast as silver.

IrishMike

I think what you have to learn is how each grading company is going to look at a coin to maximize your investment. With NGC its not as diificult because in my experience there is more consistentency especially on the designations. If you are very sure on a modern coin that PCGS will grade it the way you see it and it will bring more money then by all means it makes sense to send it their. Spend some time at a major show some time where you can submit coins and get them back and listen to the collectors and dealers complain about the grades they got from PCGS.

MadMarty

Those pictures are one of the things Russ was talking about. With proofs there is WHITE frost and SILVER frost. NGC will give a PF69UCAM to a coin with SILVER frost, PCGS will not. Both will give UCAM/DCAM to a coin with WHITE frost. For PCGS to give a DCAM the coin has to have WHITE frost and DEEP mirrors, meaning when you look at the coin the fields have to be BLACK.

100proof1957

RGL gets it !

JEFFS and Linkys prior to about 69 are very elusive in CAMEO

You get a RAW coin and it looks like a CAMEO,Its probably a DCAM

NGC and PCGS are starting to figure this out,You cant hold those coins to the same standard as the silver issues !

Proof

100proof1957

Marty,

You are saying that the SNOW (white and the 7 dwarves) Colored coins are more likely to go DCAM/UCAM than say the ICE (tea) colored coins ?

Crappy pix (link) attached,but what are the chances these cross ?



Link O Rama

The Linky and the Roosie are not at PCGS, the rest,plus a 67 CAM Linky and a 68* Cam Roosie are.

Proof

keets

Because for a while it was true - if one defines "superior" as tighter grading. That gap has narrowed substantially and is beginning to be reflected in the narrowing of the pricing gap. The other factor, which has nothing to do with grading standards, is the popularity of the PCGS registry.

another aspect of narrowing price gaps is the simple availability of coins in different holders. in the last few years there have been more and more NGC coins available at shows and in the shops i go to, a reflection of the increase in submissions to them. as more NGC coins become available to us, we pay more for them for two reasons that i see----the quality of the coins and the lessening of PCGS dominance in the marketplace. there's more choice today.

al h.

MadMarty

Really it's all modern crap!!!

100proof1957

64's are not MODERN CRAP !

DHeath

Two very smart things have been said in this thread that I'd like to share an opinion about.

NGC and PCGS are starting to figure this out,

The services are getting better based on the increasing number of coins they're seeing.

in the last few years there have been more and more NGC coins available at shows and in the shops i go to, a reflection of the increase in submissions to them.

Keets, that's exactly right.


Marty - You Suck!

ozzysdad

Geezzzzzzz, That went from Apples and Oranges, to Modern Crap real quick, I found it very informative Though?


I flipped a Quarter, Keet's has a better Theory.and Russ has a valid point. Iam still confused?

LeeG

Marty:



"YOU SUCK"



Lee

Myqqy

With proofs there is WHITE frost and SILVER frost.



Explain this a little more Marty....

Russ

White frost:



Silver frost:



Russ, NCNE

Russ

White frost:



Silver frost:



Russ, NCNE

MadMarty

Yep! PCGS don't like silver frost...

keets

hey Mike

the best way to see the difference is to look at set after set after set. you'll learn how to readily identify the DCAM/CAM difference and then you'll start to notice a difference in the appearance of the DCAM's. the white frost DCAM's are the very earliest strikes and the silver frost DCAM's are the ones where the frost has been slightly abraded from repeated strikes but is still uniform with no breaks. any noticeable frost breaks or uneven frost will land you in CAM territory.

al h.