POLL: Let's find out how trusting collectors are...

MrEureka

Please do NOT answer if you are a dealer.

A stranger responds to your post on the BST board and has an interest in buying your $500 coin. Will you ship the coin on approval if his references, Dave Bowers and Mark Feld, both tell you that he is extremely trustworthy?

dthigpen

Yes, I would ship it on approval if his references checked out.

morgannut2

That's a pretty extreem question--I' wonder if either would stick their neck out like that if there was any doubt in your mine in the first place. But yes, of course I would.

Bochiman

The key isn't the 2 extremes you posted Andy.
The key to the answer, for me, is what Dthigpen mentioned....."if their references check out".
I trust Mark, but he is also a bit of a nice guy. I would actually question him a bit about this dealer and the references, then, if things checked out, I would consider it.

BUT, if it is a dealer, not a wannabe, why can't he pay for the $500 coin?
What is the big problem with that? That is what I wonder.

Bochiman

BTW.....I don't know Dave Bowers, so his reference wouldn't mean anything to me. Just FYI
(yes, I know who you are referring to but I do not know him).

boiler78

Where do I ship the coin and how would you like it shipped?

MrEureka

BUT, if it is a dealer, not a wannabe, why can't he pay for the $500 coin?

Of course he can pay for the coin. He just prefers not to, primarily because he isn't sure the seller will ship the coin and he isn't sure the seller will refund the money if the coin proves unsatisfactory. Without naming names, the latter uncertainty may be an especially critical consideration when dealing with individuals perceived as being somewhat irrational.

Murphy

I've never had a coin worth that much, let alone have it up for sale. But I will. And when someone asks me for a free peek, I will tell the person that nothing in life is free my friend, pay for it and you can look all you want at it. If you don't like it, send it back and if it' the same coin I sent ya I'll refund your money. That's fair.

Yousri

I would.

ziggy29

Sure, provided I could check the references and they confirmed it, absolutely.

mrearlygold

<< <i>BUT, if it is a dealer, not a wannabe, why can't he pay for the $500 coin?

Of course he can pay for the coin. He just prefers not to, primarily because he isn't sure the seller will ship the coin and he isn't sure the seller will refund the money if the coin proves unsatisfactory. Without naming names, the latter uncertainty may be an especially critical consideration when dealing with individuals perceived as being somewhat irrational. >>






Bingo

Tom

MrEureka

Fascinating and terrifying results!

SethChandler

I'd check out the references, then engage in two or three satisfactory transactions BEFORE I'd start sending coins on approval. I was a stockbroker for 10 yrs and I had many, many, "renegs" that cost me lots of dough.....therefore I'm a bit conservative.

dimples

Why not...that's how this business is run.. most big dealers are not going to ruin their reputation over $ 500.

My non coin friends can't understand how I can send coins worth thousands to pcgs and trust them to get the coins back.They say how do you know they're the same coins and not replacements one grade below.

dthigpen

You do have to take into consideration that a lot of collectors on these boards are relatively new and cynical and have only bought coins from traditional Brick & Mortar shops and Ebay, never participating in the approval process or true mail order purchases. I'm willing to bet it is a lot of those collectors that would not be comfortable in this situation (Not that there's ANYTHING wrong with that).

coinguy1

<< <i>Of course he can pay for the coin. He just prefers not to, primarily because he isn't sure the seller will ship the coin and he isn't sure the seller will refund the money if the coin proves unsatisfactory. Without naming names, the latter uncertainty may be an especially critical consideration when dealing with individuals perceived as being somewhat irrational >>

Ok, now let me re-phrase that from the seller's point of view:

Of course the seller can ship the coin to the buyer without first receiving payment. He just prefers not to, primarily because he isn't sure the buyer will pay for the coin or return it. Without naming names, the latter uncertainty may be an especially critical consideration when dealing with many buyers/individuals.

Murphy

If I knew you and knew that you had a reputation for honesty, then of course you could look at my coin. At the moment, I don't know many dealers or collectors. There are a few I would send coins to on approval. But I would have to know you. Baker, Barnes & Biddle couldn't persuade me to send you a coin on approval if I didn't know you.

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>BUT, if it is a dealer, not a wannabe, why can't he pay for the $500 coin?

Of course he can pay for the coin. He just prefers not to, primarily because he isn't sure the seller will ship the coin and he isn't sure the seller will refund the money if the coin proves unsatisfactory. Without naming names, the latter uncertainty may be an especially critical consideration when dealing with individuals perceived as being somewhat irrational. >>






Bingo

Tom >>




But, from reading the original thread AND the resultant post by the dealer, I didn't find the seller irrational, I found the dealer more irrational and emotional.....so, where does that leave things? (it leaves things like they are...no deal and a lot of harsh feelings).

For clarity and disclosure, I have dealt with Eric, never with Tom. I have bought/traded about 5-6 coins with Eric. When I expressed a "non-love" for one of the coins, he was on me telling me to send it back for a full refund....I never said I hated the coin, I hadn't asked for a refund, and I hadn't had the coin more than a few hours when I mentioned I wasn't "enthralled" with the coin.....I later learned the difference in lighting in my home office at that time and in natural daylight and the effects on a coin with dark toning.

So, I would still, because I have done business with Eric and he was right there for the refund, err on the side of doing what Eric did and feel it wasn't about causing problems.

ziggy29

<< <i>But I would have to know you. Baker, Barnes & Biddle couldn't persuade me to send you a coin on approval if I didn't know you. >>

It is interesting. To some degree, perhaps collectors and dealers do have different standards, then? I say that because since I became active on this board and "advertised" my search for nice AU-58 type coins in my signature, two dealers (hope they don't mind me naming them, since it's all good -- Jon from RCNH and Dennis from Jade Rare Coin) contacted me by PM and e-mail about suitable coins they had -- and sent them to me on approval without ever having done prior business with me or asking for any references. (I'd also add that while it's been several years since I've done business with him, Rick Snow has done the same and furnished some of the better-date Indians in my collection that way. But if he finds a nice XF/AU 1909-S to finish my collection, I'm ready.)

The general vibe I got was that I was active enough in the forum and had enough nice coins already "on display" that they felt I was legit and took a chance. Granted, these were *fairly* small potatoes -- on the order of almost $300 in both cases, and the coins were lovely and I paid for them the same day I received them -- but this isn't Heritage et al who could misplace $300 in a day and not miss it. (While I love all the coins they sent me, in particular, I absolutely adore the ex-Eliasberg 1853 trime Dennis sent me; I suspect this one is with me for life. What a beauty!)

While these aren't vest pocket "wannabe" dealers in Lauraspeak [TM], they're not the heavy hitters in the industry, either -- so a $300 loss if I scammed them, while certainly not devastating to them, is still significant. So it seems that some folks seem to think dealers should be more liberal about sending coins without payment than collectors. Maybe, so, maybe not, I haven't made up my mind -- but the results and the commentary are certainly interesting. We (as collectors) sometimes expect dealers to take chances that we ourselves wouldn't take, even if (as in some cases) the collector could absorb a loss more than the dealer could. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is interesting psychology.

K6AZ

If you are talking about the coin I was selling, it was never posted on the BST board. The dealer approached me about it because he was the underbidder in the auction where I bought it.

BigE

The dealer should just get his 500.00 coin somewhere else, its insulting for the collector to be told by the dealer that he doesn't trust him, this is the root of the problem. Dealer is saying "I am more trustwothy than you, so we will reverse the normal rule of paying first". ---------------------------BigE

Baley

Why does he need the coin on approval? Doesn't he trust me to ship it upon receipt of payment?

Bochiman

Andy,

I want to know why you find the results so "terrifying"?????
Because 1/3 of the people want cash up front instead of trusting someone who does this for a business but they have never dealt with?

I find it "interesting" but not "terrifying".

You have some good points at times but I think a lot of times you yell "boo" too quickly.

ziggy29

<< <i>The dealer should just get his 500.00 coin somewhere else, its insulting for the collector to be told by the dealer that he doesn't trust him, this is the root of the problem. Dealer is saying "I am more trustwothy than you, so we will reverse the normal rule of paying first". ---------------------------BigE >>

I don't disagree with this philosophy *or* the philosophy of sending coins "on approval."

My personal feeling is that a collector doesn't need to justify their opinion or decision about whether or not to "trust" a dealer to send the dealer a coin on approval. It's a personal comfort-level thing and there's no right or wrong. But if a collector who won't trust a reputable dealer (with impeccable references) to look at their coin before payment, I hope they don't expect dealers who don't know them well to send them coins on approval, either. I think this is a case where what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and no point of view is suspect as long as it's consistent.

Regulated

Very interesting thread - I'm surprised at the number of people that haven't answered yes.

BigE

Ziggy, I would never expect a dealer who doesn't know me to send me coins on approval, wouldn't even ask---------------------------BigE

ziggy29

[board hiccup -- duplicate post deleted]

ziggy29

<< <i>Ziggy, I would never expect a dealer who doesn't know me to send me coins on approval, wouldn't even ask---------------------------BigE >>

Neither would I. I don't expect it either, and I've never asked for that privilege. But some dealers still do so anyway, even without having being asked to do so, and I appreciate their trust even though I hadn't earned it. In the cases of the dealers I mentioned above, I would have paid in advance provided I knew I could get my VISA credited when I sent it back. But they asked few questions and shipped the coins anyway, sometimes even without getting credit card information in case I was a fraud.

My only point is that one should be consistent with it. If you wouldn't send a coin to dealer "on approval," don't expect them to do the same. And if a dealer won't send a coin on approval, don't expect collectors selling their coins to do so. (This assumes equal ability to furnish good professional references.)

CarlWohlforth

Do I get to vote? I'm a part time dealer. I can't see the results unless I vote but I don't want to mess up the instructions.

Lakesammman

Heck yes. I'd flame Mark but not Dave if there were problems......

MrEureka

I want to know why you find the results so "terrifying"?????

Bochiman - Great question, and the answer goes far beyond numismatics. I find the results terrifying because they hint at a widening breakdown in civil society. When so many people are so scared of strangers and so disconnected from the fabric of society that they are unwilling to trust anyone new under any circumstances, I fear where we are headed. It also scares me that I didn't realize this problem was as bad as it apparently is.

nwcs

The credibility of references can mean a lot to me. But if instead of those two the references were Larry and his brother Darrell and his other brother Darrell, I would probably ask for the money first.

Bear

If at least two people I knew, respected dealers

or collectors, vouched for the person, that would be good enought for

me .But these two folks, Feld and Bowers, never heard of either.

Longacre

yes, with those references, so long as I spoke to the references.

Myqqy

I wonder if responses to this question can be related to socio-economic status. If you're asking a modest-budgeted collector to send a $300 coin to somebody he does not know, then I would certainly understand any hesitancy. But if the collector routinely buys and sells 4 or 5 figure coins, then I would understand why they wouldn't think twice about sending a coin for approval....

CalGold

I can understand why a dealer would not want to upfront the money to a collector he does not know. The collector does not have a reputation in the business to protect and might just claim it was a "done deal" once he got the check. Remember that "done deal" thread a while back? Of course, the value of the coin in question would color my comfort level and would color the response of the dealer to my request for references or cash collateral. I can understand why a dealer who is used to taking or giving thousands on memo might not want to bother with prepaying a stranger on a $350 item.

CG

Bochiman

Andy,

Thanks for clarifying "terrifying". I can understand that way of thinking.
1) It doesn't bother me that people in today's day/age stopped trusting like they have...look at how people are getting taken advantage of. Go into something with that in mind and understand what you have to overcome for trust.
2) Yes...I think that a few people look at things in small circles and quite differently.

MrEureka

Probably to some small extent, but people that have $500 coins generally can afford to take a miniscule chance of losing a $500 coin.

nwcs

> Probably to some small extent, but people that have $500 coins generally can afford to take a miniscule chance of losing a $500 coin.

Well, those of us who have only a small handful of $500 coins would feel the pain far more than those who have lots of $500 coins.

ziggy29

<< <i>Well, those of us who have only a small handful of $500 coins would feel the pain far more than those who have lots of $500 coins. >>

Well, if you ever want to sell your $500ish AU-58 1827 half, just let me know. I'll even pay in advance. I like the Bust Half I have for my type collection, but yours would still be a serious upgrade.

morgannut2

I am very suprised at the results of this poll. I've been sending coins to dealers for 30 years and the worst that has happened is one check was late by 2 weeks and the dealer was rude about it. I check 2 references or only sell to those who are Coin World advertisers for some time length. Never had a single problem, and I get coins on approval all the time from dealers I've done business with because that's the easiest way to know what you're buying. Perhaps the commerce on slease-bay has caused people to be more cautious than in the past.

nwcs

<< <i>

<< <i>Well, those of us who have only a small handful of $500 coins would feel the pain far more than those who have lots of $500 coins. >>

Well, if you ever want to sell your $500ish AU-58 1827 half, just let me know. I'll even pay in advance. I like the Bust Half I have for my type collection, but yours would still be a serious upgrade. >>

I don't think that half will be seeing the outside world again for a few decades...

IrishMike

I reckon I've been lending money to folks since 1971 and have a pretty good track record with or without someone telling me this person is honest. If someone I respect vouches for them of course I would. I've made quarter million signature loans dozens of times, of course it weren't my money only my job and future income on the line.

ziggy29

<< <i> I don't think that half will be seeing the outside world again for a few decades... >>

Can't fault me for trying! My fault for falling asleep at the switch while I had it on my watch list, though. One of us probably would have paid a lot more money for it otherwise. You're welcome.

Gemini

<< <i>Please do NOT answer if you are a dealer.

A stranger responds to your post on the BST board and has an interest in buying your $500 coin. Will you ship the coin on approval if his references, Dave Bowers and Mark Feld, both tell you that he is extremely trustworthy? >>



I suffer from phoneyonthehornafobia... how do I know its really Dave and Mark on the phone and not someone who hired Rich Little....












Only kidding I could and would...

ccex

I would be very skeptical if I received emails or phone calls from two persons saying they are Mark Feld and Q. David Bowers in order to get me to send a $500 coin to a stranger. I have never purchased coins from either of these well known dealers, and expect they have better things to do with their time than make a $500 deal happen between two collectors.

If the references came to me from a couple dealers I trust, have dealt with in person, and whose voice I recognize on the phone, then I would ask them a couple of questions about the buyer and take their recommendations. I won't list the dozen such dealers I trust here. There are also a few such collectors I whose references would work for me. For example, I'd ship the coin to a collector based on K6AZ's recommendations.

Yes eBay, spamming dealers, cable TV coin promotions, and even many large display ads in numismatic publications has made collectors (or at least this collector) more skeptical than when I bought from strangers sight unseen in the '70s and '80s.

ldhair

<< <i>The dealer should just get his 500.00 coin somewhere else, its insulting for the collector to be told by the dealer that he doesn't trust him, this is the root of the problem. Dealer is saying "I am more trustwothy than you, so we will reverse the normal rule of paying first". ---------------------------BigE >>

CarlWohlforth

Well I wanted to see the results so I voted. Naturally I would ship the coin with references like that. You can adjust the results as you see fit.

MrEureka

For the dealers that couldn't answer and can't see the results, we're at 86/42. I guess one third of our collectors are completely paranoid.

LincolnCentMan

Please do NOT answer if you are a dealer.

...you should probably put a third option with something like, "Just show me the results," so that dealers can see the % without really "voting."

David

MrEureka

...you should probably put a third option with something like, "Just show me the results," so that dealers can see the % without really "voting."

Done. Too late, but done.