Did PCGS blow it on this coin? Sure looks like an SMS to me!

Russ

Russ, NCNE

coppercoins

Looks like it to me.

dthigpen

Then send it in and make them pay for it

GoYankees

What's the difference between SMS and business strikes for (1965-67)?

This is a question I've always wanted to ask but keep forgetting to do so - until now.

coinkat

I have never submitted a coin from 1965,66 or 67... would SMS be required on the submission form? I know that may sound pretty lame...

EDITED TO ADD: Russ, I am not so sure they did blow it.

pharmer

Well, if they made an error, it's in your favor.

Russ

<< <i>Well, if they made an error, it's in your favor. >>



Not my favor. The coin is listed on eBay right now. They always stick my business strikes in SMS holders!



<< <i>would SMS be required on the submission form? >>



Coinkat,

Yep, it's noted under both variety and designated by the coin number used. PCGS doesn't seem to care what's put on the submission form, though. They just slab them based every which way. Usually, if it looks "too good" it ends up in an SMS holder regardless of what the submitter puts on the form.

Russ, NCNE

rich

<< <i>What's the difference between SMS and business strikes for (1965-67)? >>



From 1965 to 1967 the US government did not make any proof sets. Instead they minted SPECIAL MINT coin SETS (SMS). These coins are uncirculated and handled with special care so that they do not exhibit the normal bag marks found on typical Uncirculated coins.Many are mirrored "Proof-like".

I've heard that SMS were struck with a little more pressure than the buisness stikes,but not as much pressure as the normal proofs.
Maybe Russ can verify this for us.

coolkarma

Russ,
It's hard to tell from the images, but the mirrors don't look very "proof like" so I think I'd agree with PCGS The reverse of the coin also appears to exhibit some weakness which would increase the likelihood it is a regular strike. Item for sale on ebay.

coinkat

Russ:

I thought this may have been your coin... but of course, how could it because your pictures are better

While I do not claim to be even close to an expert on these, this coin looks slightly different from the usual SMS, but it probably is just the picture

Coinhusker1

67 Kennedy

Looks SMS to me.

The seller claims it is "clearly" non-SMS due to die polish marks and EOR toning. I'm no expert on these, but I would think SMS coins might have die polish marks as well as business strikes.

Russ

<< <i>but the mirrors don't look very "proof like" so I think I'd agree with PCGS >>



Do the mirrors look prooflike on this one?



How about this one?



PCGS stuck them both in SMS holders.

Russ, NCNE

cladking

They were almost certainly struck under more pressure than the older proofs and
this applies especially to the cu/ ni clad due to its hardness. Proofs are struck mult-
iple times and the mint claims the SMS were not, though there is no question that at
least some of the SMS were struck twice. Probably all the SMS dies were polished
but very few of the planchets were. These coins mostly remain an enigma and part
of the reason is that different processes were used at different steps of the production
throughout the series. To complicate matters further at least some of the dies were
"retired" to strike regular issue coins.

Russ

<< <i>I'm no expert on these, but I would think SMS coins might have die polish marks as well as business strikes. >>



You bet your sweet bippie they do!



Russ, NCNE

LindeDad

I think he got a better deal by it not being SMS there actually worth more. I've bought from this seller he's top notch. Always got nice coins and excellent service. May have to think about bidding on this as it looks nicer than the one I got last week.

clackamas

Russ - A few of my 68-D's look just like that, it could be a very early die state Circ coin. When I say early I mean early strikes. The 68-D I have that has a shot at 68 looks just like that coin and is near flawless. Of course being 68-D's I would love for them to call them SMS.

pharmer

And the head spins round and round, and the coin price goes up and down

RGL

Now, Russ ... we all are in universal agreement that PCGS never makes mistakes ... get with the program.

GoYankees

<< <i>What's the difference between SMS and business strikes for (1965-67)?

This is a question I've always wanted to ask but keep forgetting to do so - until now. >>





Are there any differences that can be seen with the eye between BS and SMS? Outside of CAMs and DCAMs of course.

coolkarma

<< <i>

<< <i>but the mirrors don't look very "proof like" so I think I'd agree with PCGS >>



Do the mirrors look prooflike on this one?
How about this one?

PCGS stuck them both in SMS holders.

Russ, NCNE >>



Yes, I would agree with you - Your 1965's mirrors also don't look very "proof like", and I too would have thought they might go non-SMS. However, yours are 1965's, not 1967's As you well-know, many/most 1965's are not very proof like. The difference between an SMS and a non-SMS was very small in 1965 (with very few exceptions, many of which you have found). As cladking mentioned, the mint tried a variety of approaches from 1965 through 1967. By 1967, they more or less knew what they were doing. In 1967, SMS and non-SMS halves looked very different. Most (all?) SMS 1967s look proof like; circulation strikes don't. So, I will still agree with PCGS (of course, if they were my coins, I might not ) And if you have some 1967's that look like your 1965's, well....

clackamas

Russ,

Maybe it is time for a book on Ken half dollars. You could use known MS examples and known SMS examples and note specific die characteristics that could let anyone definativly the difference bewteen the two. I have problems with the SMS thing and have had coins come back SMS that I was certain were not. I have quite a few SMS sets that I could lend different coins from that could give examples and I am sure between you and Marty you must have an example of every die pair used. you need only document all the SMS dies and a coin would therefore not be SMS if it did not fit. It would be a big task but maybe worth it?