What's with all the NGC sets coming up for auction?

tradedollarnut

Heritage just listed this dollar set on the NGC site. Looks like it's in the FUN sale. David Lawrence sent the entire Richmond Collection thru NGC. Several other sets sold recently [such as the Share Collection] were all NGC.

PCGS coins tend to sell for more in the same grade than NGC. NGC tends to give the higher grade a bit more. In the past, the former outweighed the latter .... has something changed?

Longacre

I don't follow it too closely, but a casual observation would show that there seems to be more NGC material out there than PCGS (at least recently)

Russ

TDN,

I don't know about the coins up in the rarified air where you cruise, but down here in the ghetto NGC has gotten damned stingy with the grades on modern junk. Marty is seeing a 60% plus crossover rate from NGC to PCGS right now. That's a huge change from the past.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl

from someone who owns zero slabs, my opinion probably counts for very little. but i am observing significant plastic-market dominance by ngc, & i think the disparity is increasing.

is there REALLY, as is sometimes alleged, that much difference in grading between ngc & pcgs??? again, my observations indicate there is not.

so everything else being more or less on par, i'd think the difference in turnaround times would be the biggest factor in deciding where coins end up getting plasticized.

K S

DennisH

My take on the increase in NGC material is, it has a LOT to do with quicker grading turnaround times.

KentuckyJ

Maybe it's simply NGC had the better bid when DLRC was looking to have Richmond certified? If true, this might also explain some of the other collections. I see the market becoming more what Laura/Legend frequently points out, a self evident nice coin is nice in any holder. Perhaps all this NGC traffic simply means it's becoming less relevant to place nice coins in PCGS holders?

KJ

paigowjohnny

I agree with karl on this one...

IrishMike

<< <i>from someone who owns zero slabs, my opinion probably counts for very little. but i am observing significant plastic-market dominance by ngc, & i think the disparity is increasing.

is there REALLY, as is sometimes alleged, that much difference in grading between ngc & pcgs??? again, my observations indicate there is not.

so everything else being more or less on par, i'd think the difference in turnaround times would be the biggest factor in deciding where coins end up getting plasticized.

K S >>



For those grading experts that have a ton of dough invested in PCGS Registry sets then there is a big difference in grading standards.

morgannut2

Boy that is the multi-million dollar question TDN. It just makes zero sense. There are numerous semi-key Morgans that I would bid on, but just can't take the chance that a high value coin won't cross and it will be useless for my PCGS registry. I know Heritage likes to use ANACS due to cost and turn around times. In a way NGC is a step up! But DLRC has had the Richmond collection for a long time. I can only speculate that the owners perhaps foolishly liked the chance of a higher grade due to ego, or someone told them that the higher NGC grade would make the Morgans sell for more. Sometimes this is true, but I think every dealer who hasn't checked that PCGS won"t give the same grade using express service, especially for keys, hasn't served their client's or even their own interests very well. It's just a fact that forever reason, PCGS Morgans carry a higher sheet price than NGC Morgans in the same grade. The only coins that I'll be bidding on are super high-end ones that bear little risk, and may in fact upgrade at PCGS! And any NGC DPL's or PL's, forgetaboutit.

RYK

I have heard that NGC has better customer service. Maybe they make it easier for big collections to get graded.

Add the Duke's Creek collection of Dahlonega gold and the Duquesne Collection (complete $20 Libs, displayed at the NGC table at the ANA) to the important collections certified by NGC.

As to DK's point, I am not experienced enough or perceptive enough to conclusively say that NGC is more likely to give the higher grade, but my anecdotal experience supports that. If I am buying generics (like MS-63/64 Saints), I will only buy PCGS-graded coins because my anecdotal observation is that they sell better.

Finally, I have said it before, I like the look of most coins better in PCGS slabs.

RYK

Add one more thing:

Have you ever heard a collector or heard of a collector turn down a coin (or even hesitate) because it is in a PCGS slab, rather than NGC? I have certainly witnessed the opposite on many occasions. It's how I ended up with my 61-D $5.

morgannut2

RYK-No I've only seen NGC turned down, so you've illustated the problem in one short question. Somebody's saving a penny and losing a buck.

haletj

I think that they are for auction is the key... they figure that bidders will speculate on which coins would cross and bid pcgs money anyway, and on the coins that wouldn't cross, well, they now have it in a higher grade holder.

IrishMike

RYK you posed the question the wrong way, for I could care less which slab it is in. The question should be, have you ever turned down a coin that was in a PCGS slab because you didn't like the coin for the grade or purchase a coin in an NGC slab because you agreed with the grade or thought it undergraded. I started out buying a few PCGS IHC's for a registry but found some nice coins graded by NGC and kaboshed the registry idea. It's absolute foolishness to pass on a coin you like becuase of the slab, it becomes about slab collecting not coin collecting and anyone who says differently is in denial.

dorkkarl

<< <i>For those grading experts that have a ton of dough invested in PCGS Registry sets then there is a big difference in grading standards.

...

There are numerous semi-key Morgans that I would bid on, but just can't take the chance that a high value coin won't cross and it will be useless for my PCGS registry >>

bingo!!!

that is the ONE area where the discrepancy goes the other way, the perceived difference in standards. but the problem for pcgs is, the "registry set" market is a miniscule %-age of the overall market. that just does not bode well for long-term business planning, i would think. after all, w/ such a finite market, the room for expansion is limited.



<< <i>Have you ever heard a collector or heard of a collector turn down a coin (or even hesitate) because it is in a PCGS slab, rather than NGC? I have certainly witnessed the opposite on many occasions. It's how I ended up with my 61-D $5. >>

i've seen it go both ways, but there is an UNINFORMED bias against ngc. but like i said, everything else being more or less on par, coins are going to end up in ngc holders because they get there quickest. if a dealer can flip a pcgs coin for $100 profit, or flip 2 ngc coins for $75 each in the same amount of time, there's no doubt who'll win out.



<< <i>RYK-No I've only seen NGC turned down, so you've illustated the problem in one short question. >>

then i think your looking through rose-colored glasses. what you say may have been true 5 years ago, but resting on those laurels would spell disaster for pcgs. i'm telling you - & i can honestly claim to have no preference for either slab - the plastic bias has been eroding & will continue to do so.

bottom line for me is - i don't give a lick about the plastic because none of my coins is slabed, but if your approaching this issue w/ a predisposed bias either way, your not going to reach an objective conclusion.

K S

RYK

It's absolute foolishness to pass on a coin you like becuase of the slab, it becomes about slab collecting not coin collecting and anyone who says differently is in denial.

Agree, and when I buy a coin for my collection, I do not give a hoot (no offense, Hoot) whose holder the coin is in.

If I buy a coin as a speculation, like generic Saints, I only buy in PCGS holders because experience has taught me that they are more liquid and sell for a bit more.

lava

In my opinion, there is something going on here that we don't know about. Super collections do not end up at NGC because of their grading expertise. PCGS coins fetch more than NGC coins, as proven by the auction results.

Why NGC is anyone's guess. Maybe NGC is faster, maybe NGC gives a quicker turnaround to be the featured slaber of a collection coming to market, maybe NGC gives a discount to be the featured slaber of a collection coming to market, maybe the seller thinks that even though a PCGS coin will bring more at auction, this is more than offset by the number of coins that would be graded higher by NGC.

The folks across the street are still running a distant second behind PCGS.

In my opinion, it says something (negative) about the quality of a collection that ends up in NGC slabs. For us PCGS loyalists, the thought of buying an NGC coin triggers the inquiry -- is it going to crossover, and how much do I discount my bid to account for the risk that it may not.

Catch22

I can't let a NGC post go by without saying "why in the Hell don't they change those gawd awful slabs?" Carry on.

morgannut2

Lava and Catch22:

Nysoto

The same draped bust half dollar graded by NGC at AU50 compared to PCGS at XF45 will realize a higher price with the NGC AU50 slab. NGC is usually looser in this series, BUT NOT ALWAYS. An average higher grade by NGC can offset the higher price per grade by PCGS. I do not advocate the gradeflation, as it results in higher prices to pay for coins by collectors.

Bill

lloydmincy

Why does everyone always think PCGS is GOD, or the monopoly in the TPG business?

It is NOT TRUE that all the coins were graded by NGC in the Richmond collection. MANY were graded already when they were purchased, and many are PCGS. I track quite a few of the rarities, and know this for a fact. Furthermore, I THINK SOME OF them I am looking at, or have looked at (in las vegas recently) are UNDERGRADED in an NGC slab. For example, the 1916-d NGC MS64FB mercury dime I believe will go for $20,000+ including juice.

NGC is well known for being the grader of the classics, rarities and all. Most of the slabs are NOT new. I thought the reserves on Richmond I were high and would not sell easily. Boy was I wrong. The coins, (big ones) sold for WAY more than I thought they would, and they were NGC.

There should be little difference between NGC or PCGS. WE NEED parity with the TPG's vs. counting on just ONE TPG. I believe all of them would like fair competition.

We are buying the coin, anyway, are we not????

TONEDDOLLARS

My opinion only, I just sent a batch of coins to NGC. I used reg. service. They arrived on Monday, were in QC on Friday and will be mailed back this week. Can anyone say for certain that PCGS reg. servive would get me my coins back by the end of the year. What with how slow they are , backups Thanksgiving, shows, Christmas. I felt I was looking at 2005. Just way to long to have them out of my hands.

TONEDDOLLARS

Lava, I'm sure you could get quite an argument on that "quality of the collection" statement from some members here.Monsterman for one, who has his commem.collection in NGC. You or anyone else would be hard pressed to find a better collection. I'm sure there are other collections like this, I know of , and have seen his at FUN and it is wonderful. I think he had a thread ststing his reasons for this. It was very interesting reading.

dorkkarl

<< <i>PCGS coins fetch more than NGC coins, as proven by the auction results.... The folks across the street are still running a distant second behind PCGS. >>

this is where i totally disagree. the fact is, if it's a significant, collection, w/ significant rarities, & not "invented rarities", like "grade-dependent" coins, then there is NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL between what coin brings at auction, regardless of pcgs or ngc. like i said, resting on those laurels would get pcgs in a big heap of trouble.

people who bid on $20,000 are USUALLY not stupid. they will recognize quality regardless of the plastic, & again, "pcgs coins" WOULD NOT "bring more" in front of a well-informed crowd.

K S

Dahlonega

I'm afraid something has definitely changed. This from someone whose collection is housed in PCGS holders.

mgoodm3

PCGS at present still has the "high-end" reputation. If NGC continues getting a bigger market share the perception of the marketplace may fade whether deserved or not.

MrEureka

has something changed?

Yes. It's called a hot market. Hot markets have lots of new buyers that don't know how to grade, and lots of retailers that are happy enough to sell ANY PCGS or NGC coin, even if slightly overgraded. So if you are a seller and you can get an extra point here and there from NGC, you might as well go to NGC.

BTW, the same was true in the bull market of 1988-89. But when the market tanked, NGC's edge vanished for years.

morgannut2

The question was why are the vast majority (only 8 of 287 in the Richmond) and most of the Heritage SILVER DOLLARS graded by NGC? I don't really care who grades the coins from the collections of Pittman, Brand, Norweb and other "great" dollars because dorkcarl is correct; they'd bring the same money raw. However when the 75 or so "commons" of the 97+ Morgans in a circ. set are bid/ask substancially more in PCGS plastic, then why are they being sold by the auctioneers in the less liquid NGC plastic?

lava

Dorkkarl, you should not even opine on this subject. You are anti-slab, remember, and you don't own any, so by your own admissions your opinion on this subject is not an informed one, so preach your sermon elsewhere.

There is the distinct possibility that a genius will come along and stick his or her entire collection of ms66s in NGC slabs, but the problem is that when he or she goes to sell, the public doesn't possess the same genius, and thus falls back on the general rule -- PCGS is stricter with its grading, on average, and thus bid more for PCGS coins, bid less (if at all) for others. The registry concept has heightened the issue, giving ANACS a real squeeze.

I feel qualified enough that I will buy NGC and ANACS slabs in my specialty of mirrored morgans, and since a large component of the buying public will pay less for an NGC or ANACS slab, there are some good deals to be had. But, knowledge is key, and while the educated buyer may prosper in this fashion, it is not doing any good for the owner of the coin in the NGC or ANACS slab.

I don't know about other areas outside morgans, so in other areas, if I were to buy, I would fall back on the general rule, and pay more for a PCGS slab. It is comforting to know I am buying the slab that is desired by more people. Sure a few geniuses may not care about the slab, but unless their coins crossover, they will feel the difference when they go to sell.

Bear

Truth and reality of most statements ,are mainly

dependent on peoples collective perceptions

IrishMike

lava there is at least one big hole in your arguement, if its true as you say that the public will pay less for the coin, same grade in an NGC slab then obviously they can buy it for less. This lessens their downside not increases it. You can buy proof 70 Washingintons all day long for $65-$75 in NGC slabs while the same coin will cost you $250 in a PCGS slab and these prices have moved very little in the past 3 years and 99% of the collecting public wouldn't be able to tell the difference if they weren't slabbed (this of course assumes that there is any difference). So if Joe Blow collector buys 10 coins in NGC slabs he has $650 at risk while if he buys them in PCGS holders he has $2500 at risk. If he is forced to sell he has way less at risk buying the coins in NGC slabs, and please don't try to come back and tell me that they aren't marketable because I have sold dozen of them.

morgannut2

I must not get it. If a set of quarters is bought in NGC holders $650, there is less downside risk moneywise than the same set at $2500 in PCGS holders. OK so far. Now if you sell the NGC quarters in their NGC slabs the most you can lose is $650 which isn't going to happen, but you could easily lose this in the PCGS group. OK I get it. Here's my problem. If Lava takes his Dollars or someone else takes their $650 in quarters to PCGS and one HALF grade the same at PCGS, wouldn't the collection then be worth $1575 all thing being equal? If an auction house had the clout to quickly grade your coins at PCGS, wouldn't you rather have $1575 than $650? Remember a complete choice Morgan Dollar Collecton is over a MILLION dollars so grading costs mean nothing.

lava

I agree with your point Irish Mike. No question, if you buy NGC you are generally paying less, so in that sense the risk is less, I suppose.

I think I was more focused on the collector or investor seeking to get the coin in a PCGS slab. The crossover effort is a labor of love -- time, expense, uncertainty all are factors when considering whether to crossover. The lesson has taught a lot of people that it might just be easier to buy the coin slabbed PCGS.

I think if I were buying the more modern material where, as you say, very few can really tell a difference, if there is a difference, I might be swayed by your compelling argument re NGC.

badger

Turnaround time seems to be the biggest opportunity.

tradedollarnut

I think Andy hit the nail on the head. It's an up market and thus the discount that used to be there for NGC is going away. Therefore the extra few grades given by NGC overwhelms the smaller than usual loss taken on all the other coins.

But there will be hell to pay when the market tightens. Who is going to want to be holding the $125,000 MS66 seated coin that used to be in a 64 holder at one fifth the price? Ouch.

CalGold

<< <i>But there will be hell to pay when the market tightens. Who is going to want to be holding the $125,000 MS66 seated coin that used to be in a 64 holder at one fifth the price? Ouch >>



Does the recent volume of auction sales indicate that the "smart money" leaving the market?

CG

MrEureka

Does the recent volume of auction sales indicate that the "smart money" leaving the market?

Not really. The volume sold at auction was also huge a year ago and (in hindsight) smart money was BUYING those coins.

Now, an interesting question would be "How do you know if the smart money is leaving the market?" But that's a question for another thread.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Dorkkarl, you should not even opine on this subject. You are anti-slab, remember, and you don't own any, so by your own admissions your opinion on this subject is not an informed one, so preach your sermon elsewhere. >>

that's an amazing attitude to take, don't you think? i mean, if you think that a slab collector will offer a more UNBIASED opinion than someone who doesn't own a shard of plastic, your seriously deluding yourself. i only offered my opinion on this subject because, of just about anyone on this forum, you won't get a more UNBIASED opinion then what i'm telling you. as for being uninformed, that's absurd. if anyone on this forum's looked at more coins in 35 years then me, & THAT INCLUDES COINS STUCK IN PLASTIC, i'd love to meet him or her.

i suggest you reconsider your standpoint. do you really want all your advice to come from people who have a plastic bias 1 way or another??? talk about following the blind man!

K S

MrEureka

if anyone on this forum's looked at more coins in 35 years then me, & THAT INCLUDES COINS STUCK IN PLASTIC, i'd love to meet him or her.

Dorrkarl - Be careful what you wish for!