Are there really more naturally/beautifully toned coins available than there were 10 or 20 years ago

coinguy1

My post below was written as a response in another thread about a toned Morgan dollar which recently sold for big bucks on Ebay - what are your opinions regarding my hypothesis?

To those who feel that the available number of such (toned) coins is far greater than it was 10 or 20 years ago, I offer this possibility......

Perhaps the number is the same as it used to be. But, due to the internet, chat-rooms such as this, etc. the information is much more widely, quickly and efficiently disseminated?

I am a collector of certain antique toys. When I started collecting in 1991, my only two realistic means of finding such items were antique shows and public auctions. Now days, just because of Ebay, many more of these toys are potentially available to collectors. AND, it turns out that some of them are not nearly as rare as once thought. Prices have adjusted accordingly over time.

dbldie55

Doesn't matter to me. I would take a white coin over a toned one every time.

byergo

People usually don't post run of the mill white coins that are exactly like thousands of its bretheren. Toned coins are much more photogenic, unique, and exciting.

Russ

<< <i>But, due to the internet, chat-rooms such as this, etc. the information is much more widely, quickly and efficiently disseminated? >>



I would add to that the possibility that more are coming out of hiding because of price acceleration.

Russ, NCNE

Numismanic

<< <i>Doesn't matter to me. I would take a white coin over a toned one every time. >>

dorkkarl

i concede that maybe more coins are "coming out of hiding" as russ says, but based on what i've seen over 35 years, there must have been a he11uva of hiding going on.

personally, i'm firmly convinced the population of toned coins has increased dramatically, if you know what i mean , but in addition, there are more coming out of old collections than ever before.

K S

Coinhusker1

As Russ said, the high prices will bring coins out of hiding and out of inventory, which should have a stabilizing effect on prices. The supply of toned coins in existence may not have changed, but the supply of toned coins available has increased due to the high prices.

keets

Russ is again first to post the obvious and more likely correct answer. while the same amount may have existed twenty years ago and today---very doubtful---more will be seen today because they can be sold for more money. just another example of the dynamics of American Capitalism.

al h.

michael

mark

i have heard your thread post comments from many older advanced collectors the last few years and i agree with your comments


michael

UncleWiggly

Whatever it is I believe they've found their niche along with their premium and they are here to stay as such. And the sooner all the NT coins and the AT/album toned coins of any grade get put into their proper holders the better. Any toned coins I have I now have sent for a second opinion. Three have come back and will be made into Christmas Tree Ornaments or put into bezels for jewelry.


Jerry.

islemangu

Are there really more naturally/beautifully toned coins available than there were 10 or 20 years ago?

We can all only guess but the grading services probably know the real answer.

Would think as an AT proventative measure, the grading services would keep detailed records of the frequencies of different type toned coins submitted for grading. The radar has to always be out encase some doctor somewhere gets a little too greedy and starts leaving a trial that can be tracked.

magikbilly

Hi All,
I started collecting deliberately about 25 years ago. Morgans particularly when I first started, and I do not recall that many coins of color. What I do recall was average or below and usually was dipped regardless. I DO recall a lot of dipping of both Morgans and Walkers. A LOT. I really have no idea what the "truth" is, but I don't remember seeing that many toned coins such as is available now - could be for any/many of the reason expressed here.

Best,
Billy

Gemini

Seems like Morgan "texile" toned coins also seem to be in abundance lately and coming out of the woodwork.
In all the years I have been collecting I don't recall this term ever being used that much until recently. Maybe I've been asleep...

MrSpud

Perhaps at least some of the increase is also due to the extra 10 to 20 years of aging that the coins underwent? More smog in the air?

zzzz

The answer to your question ...

YES .... and many more NT's are being made every day ...

morgannut2

The A/T coins really stared showing up more after a group of coin docters are reported to have set up shop in 1994. They put out thousands of coins that made it into holders before the TPGs started getting wise. There are even more failed experiments out there that are always resurfacing on Ebay. Actually if you look at all the Morgans, say at last years Heritage FUN Auction, the percentage of attractive toned Morgans in PCGS holders is not that high. You have to remember that a lot of monochromally toned and unattractive stuff is LEAVING the market too through dipping.

darktone

You know if these coins were around 20-25 years ago you think they would have showed up in quantity during the big silver melts- maybe not the high grade coins but at leat the MS60-64 stuff. As a teen ager I had a dealer that let me look at thousands of morgans as they cam in for melt value but I never saw any with the crazy colors that are seen today. mike

mr1931S

darktone I think some valid points have been made about possible reasons for so many toned coins showing up these days.
Aside from that, Wayne Miller, in his textbook, makes some very interesting remarks about how the eye perceives color. I suggest to anyone who buys toned Morgans that they acquire a copy. Buy the book before you buy the coin.

morgannut2

Good point Mr1874. And pay the 30 bucks to get Bob Campbell's video talk on A/T sold by the ANA too. Both sources have good info. By the way, because everyone sees every color differently, the Smithsonian Museum actually used to sell a color chart so every frequency of light would have the same named color-- even if we all see color differently. Obsure fact but true.

RotatedRainbows

The ability of finding them is easier today with the Internet but if you were not actively searching for them in the eighties you probably did not see all the ones that were actually available. I remember going to local shows in '86-'87 and certain dealers had rows of them in the new PCGS holders with some extreme pieces in 65 going for $550-$600, I purchased one group of four toned pieces from Ellsmere (the dealer a recent thread was asking about) all graded PCGS MS63 three of which I still own today (one is even in its original rattler). Also when Teletrade first opened they would sell NGC pregraded coins (they came in a sealed flip with a guarantee that if you sent them to NGC they would slab at a certain grade) and I bought dozens of really bright toned coins in their auctions for no premium above standard book value. I would be willing to bet the people who say they see more today (especially the ones who prefer doctored/dipped I mean white coins) never actively looked at/for toned coins so never searched out the dealers who normally carried these coins much less searched their inventory for them.

Sunnywood

We should not underestimate the power of the internet in bringing coins to collectors. To all those of you who think there are so many more toned Morgans out there now, what happens if you subtract Ebay from this equation? And all the online dealer website (both Ebay stores and private websites)? And then subtract the online auction catalogs, so that you can't browse the offerings? The end result is how is was in the "old days" - the only ways you saw coins were on the bourse floor, at your local coin shop, in newspaper (Coin World) ads, and possibly in auction catalogs. The internet has increased by a factor of ten or more the number of coins available for viewing and browsing, and color coins are the most likely candidates for online offerings with pictures.

I say "possibly" with respect to the auction catalogs for this reason: the internet has also greatly increased auction awareness. In decades past, only sophisticated collectors had subscriptions to Stack's, New Netherlands, B. Max Mehl, etc. And those catalogs did not have a lot of beautiful color photos in the old days !!! Now everyone is aware of the major auction houses (Heritage, ANR, Bowers, Stack's, Superior, Goldberg) because of the internet, and because of the accessability of those catalogs online. More auction coins go to collectors than ever before.

Another example is the increase in awareness of "textile" toning from mint-bag burlap. A comment was made in this thread about the sudden increase in these coins. Yes, but it is ALL due to internet discussion. Subtract these Boards and eBay from existence, and you would NEVER have heard a peep about textile toning.

Most of the toned Morgans out there have a little color, and do not fall into the "monster wild rainbow" or "beautifully album toned" categories. The number of true, attractive wild toners is considerably less than the posts here would indicate. I should know - I scour every single eBay offering, every auction lot, and every dealer's inventory looking for them. There really aren't that many beautiful toners, especially in the better dates. If they were all AT, the doctors would have worked on some better date coins too. Turns out the existence of rainbow coins corresponds pretty closely to the dates that were stored in bags in large quantity, which are of course the common dates. BUT - not ALL of the common dates. Try to find a 1921-P toner. Very tough. This is very good evidence that toners are NOT the work of coin doctors, because the doctors would be just as able to tone up the readily available '21-P's as the '81-S's.

Unlike many other series, undipped white Morgans exist because of the large number of coins that were stored in 1000-coin bags. The coins in the interior of the bag (not in contact with the burlap) typically stayed white. The large number of white coins available makes them easier for dealers to sell. So dealers promote them. Always remember: dealers only like to sell what they can buy !!!!!! Besides, it is VERY easy to make more white coins by dipping. Much easier than it is to make convincing AT coins. So to me, (undipped) white Morgans are appealing, but not as fascinating as coins that have acquired beautiful natural toning over a long period of storage in albums or bags.

I do not disparage white Morgans. A collection of top-notch frosty or prooflike white Morgans is very exciting. But there is undeniably more individuality, diversity and visual intrigue in a top notch collectin of toned Morgans. And the latter is MUCH MUCH MUCH more difficult to assemble. High-grade white Morgans are ALWAYS available for a price. Better date toners are almost never available for any price.

Best,
Sunnywood

darktone

No question the internet has brought lots of coins- but coin dealers and shows had very little to offer as far as toning back in the old days. It seems like most of the people that like toned stuff believe all toned slabbed coins are NT and the people that don't like toning believe colorful toning to be AT- am I the only one that loves toning but accepts for a fact many market acceptable coins are AT? mike

ArtR

Sunnywood

An excellent and well thought out post. Stating the facts, the way they are.

RotatedRainbows

You obviously were going to the wrong shows and talking to the wrong dealers, I never had a problem finding nice toned coins (most were raw before 1990) when I went to shows and contacted a select group of dealers I knew. Are there AT coins in slabs, of course but if you ran in the right circles there were plenty of nice toned coins around in the old days, just like everything else in life if you have the right connections and talked to the right people there was plenty of nice toned coins around before the boom the Internet (and Ebay) helped create.

Rob790

Sunnywood, you've made some insightful and interesting points. It also seems there should be more TPG "monster" peace dollars out there cause there is a definate price incentive for it over your standard "monster" Morgan. Maybe those are harder to get passed the TPG's. Anyways, interesting points.

Shamika

<< <i>Perhaps the number is the same as it used to be. But, due to the internet, chat-rooms such as this, etc. the information is much more widely, quickly and efficiently disseminated? >>


I couldn't agree more. Hypothetically speaking, can you imagine if, after having the internet (Heritage, ANR, eBay, PCGS Message Boards, etc.) the internet were no more?

morgannut2

No Darktone you're not the only one! "Market accepable" is the operative phrase. The bottem line is when you get past the common dates (1881-S, 1883-O, 1885-0, 1887-P, etc. etc.) a Morgan that is both beautifully toned AND Gem-65 or better grade is a very, very rare bird. And you need to be very carefull and knowledgeable when you pay big money for these. Of course Gem naturally white DMPL's are often very rare too, but for these we have good population data. And no one is mislead by the all the diamond dust polish and spray-on Krylon silver frost crowd who lurk as humerous denizens on a few Ebay sites.

ArtR

<< <i>but coin dealers and shows had very little to offer as far as toning back in the old days >>



As Rotated Rainbows stated it depended on the shows. The Silver Dollar Conventions that were held in the 80's in St Louis always had an abundance of toned Morgans on the floor. Also the Auctions held by McIntire at these Conventions had pages of toned Morgans up for Bids.

Hadleydog

Where is Mr DeFalco when you need him? He was selling toned stuff over 30 years ago, and has told me there has always been a select market for them.
I personally believe they are surfacing now because of the strong money they are commanding. Heck, even the owner of a local coinshop finally let his 300 or so toners go, and they have never been on the market before (he bought 3 bags and has been hoarding the toners). So there is a single source that is responsible for 300 fresh pieces!

jom

All joking aside about AT coins being made, in the intervening time that many of the older collectors are talking about many "new" coins have had the chance to tone. I've seen a set of Kennedy clads of mine tone in only 7-8 years. How many other collectors can claim the same over, say, a 35 year period? There are probably a LOT and not just clads...silver, nickel...whatever....it doesn't matter the series. Today, I could probably put together a "white" set of Buffalo nickels and if I store them right, in 10 years they could all very well be nicely toned. This all depends on the evironment or whatever but even 10 years is long enough to tone many coins.

jom

Newmismatist

<< <i>

<< <i>But, due to the internet, chat-rooms such as this, etc. the information is much more widely, quickly and efficiently disseminated? >>



I would add to that the possibility that more are coming out of hiding because of price acceleration.

Russ, NCNE >>



It's not so much "price acceleration" as "price awareness".

Based on my experience this past year, particularly in setting up the Toned Coin Collecotrs Society, I have found that there are a very dedicated group of collectors who have been quietly buying toned coins for years and this portion of the market has been "hidden" from the majority of collectors who are "numerical" grade conscious, as opposed to "eye-appeal" conscious. Because of the now visible prices that are showing up both here and on ebay - it appears that they are going "up" in price - whereas I believe the really wonderful toned coins have been selling for very strong money for a long time - but very "quietly". I think the cat's now out of the bag