An "expert" opinion on determining AT vs. NT
JadeRareCoin
Posts: 2,768 ✭
Can a coin be determined to be AT vs. NT by looking at a digital image of the coin? My quick answer: NO!
One could render an opinion, but nothing more. I suppose that there are some exceptions on the blatant AT jobs, but I am talking about coins that could go either way.
To determine if toning on a coin is natural or artificially added, you must view the coin in person. When I am looking at a coin with suspicious toning, I like to use a 100 watt light source and my Zeiss loupe. I roll the coin at various angles to determine if the color is "on the metal" or "in the metal". I also look for certain characteristics (i.e. how the toning terminates at design elements, the color changes, the pattern, does the toning change color at an angle, etc., etc.).
Do you think that an expert (i.e. PCGS, NGC, etc.) would give their opinion via an image? I doubt it. If they did, they would say, "well, I would need to see the coin in person". Same thing with counterfeit coins.
BTW, I have seen 2 experts disagree if a particular coin is AT or NT. That gets into a whole other discussion regarding the definition of AT/NT.
PS - I am not an expert in the area of AT/NT. Just giving an opinion.
www.jaderarecoin.com - Updated 6/8/06. Many new coins added!
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
0
Comments
no, not always
<< <i>To determine if toning on a coin is natural or artificially added, you must view the coin in person.
no, not always >>
True - really really bad toning can be picked up a mile away - I was thinking more of the stuff that gets by the graders - you know - the REALLY good coindoctored stuff.
no, not always
True. Note that I stated this in line 2 of my post: "I suppose that there are some exceptions on the blatant AT jobs, but I am talking about coins that could go either way."
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>does the toning change color at an angle, >>
Hi, please explain your thoughts on this quote.
My friends, it is a matter of degree, and there are not only two "black/white" choices.
If EVERY toned coin was either 1) stored in a mint sewn bag from the date of mintage and opened today, or
2) Baked in a sulfer oven this morning from bright white to rainbow toned,
then yes, the NT/AT debate would be crystal clear! Every coin would be either/or.
But there are infact infinite shades of grey, and each particular toned coin had a unique history of how it was stored, in what environment, by which owners, with what intent or lack therof, and for how long.
Jade, you make an excllent point about digital images vs in person inspection; even then, all anyone can go by is "how the coin looks" and that is always (in the absence of any knowledge of the history of the coin) How does the coin LOOK?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>the biggest mistake almost everyone makes is the assumption that a coin is either NT or it is AT. >>
bingo.
WHY can't so many of you get it through your pointy little heads??? i've brought this issue up time & again, normally to the response of getting bashed or ignored. is it really so much easier for you to think the argument is nt vs. at???
THE ISSUE IS MKT-ACCEPTABLE VS. MKT UN-ACCEPTABLE
& we live in a FREE MARKET where opinions may differ (despite what plastic co's would have you believe).
the ONLY naturally toned coins are those that have acquired tone through the normal channels of commerce. that does not include wayte-raymond albums, that does not include cigar smoke, chemistry sets, heat lamps, ovens, blowtorches or any of that other baloney.
natural toning occurs from a coin being in it's natural environment, not an artificial environment (like inside a potato).
bottom line is & always has been: MARKET ACCEPTABLE TONING may be acquired EITHER artificially or naturally.
PERIOD!
K S
Hi, please explain your thoughts on this quote.
stman, that's a difficult thing to explain, at least for me. Some toning that has occurred naturally over time will usually have "iridescence" that actually changes color as the light hits the surface at various angles. The same phenomenon occurs in nature (i.e. film of oil on water, rainbow, etc.). I like to move the coin at various angles under light and carefully observe how the color reacts to the light. It's more of a gut feeling, but most of the AT crap that we see at shows will be "flat", for lack of a better term.
Trust me; I am not qualified to disseminate information on the physics of toning. I just know what to look for. Forum member Newmismatist is very well versed on the subject, has displayed toned coins at national shows and has written on the subject. Perhaps he will post to this thread and elaborate on the subject.
Newmismatist.....ya out there?
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Everything else that comes out that process is open to interpretation.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Camelot
<< <i>Newmismatist.....ya out there? >>
Yep - home from work (have to do that to pay for my "dealer obscene profit fund" ) - Dennis - I believe that the reason that the colors change as you rotate the light is because when ther angle of incidence changes, the light beam travels at a longer or shorter distance thru the silver-sulfide (the thin film) as different colors of light have different wave-lengths (ie different thickness) the interference changes depending on which colors are interferred with (cancelled out) and which colors are enhanced by the color refraction - that's probably a semi- accurate dsccription but if you think of colors as a series of layers - like and onion peal - some get canceled out as the angle of the light changes during the rotation process - you can easily see that phenominom by rotating a CD ROM under a light source - Hope this helps
Although you can see "patterns" of color in a photo or image - you have to remember that the image catures the "color" at one single point as the light source moves over the coin as you rotate the coin - the coin can rotate 360 degrees around the center, like a record or around its central axis like a top and there are an infinite number of variations (N to S , E to W and every point onthe compuss in between) the human eye distinuishes the ever-changing angel of incidence as different colors reflecting off of the coin - an image captures only one of that infinate number of positions that the color can can reflect - As I type this I have several toned coins sitting on the upper part of my keyboard. If I move my head so that I look at the coin from a different angle the colors turn from bright vibrant colors and then deepen as they then turn quite dark so they are almost a lifeless Black-Violet and when I move so that the light is reflected at about a 45 degree angle they again become vibrant bands of Green, Purple-Magenta, transitionoing to Copper-Gold, Ice-blue, a pale magenta, then champagne to a pale champagne-silver - A photo will only capture Part of that look, and the coin can be made to look much nicer that it realy is, or a fantastically toned coin can be made to look dull and lifeless - the color nuances are different and it is often those nuances that give you clues as to AT vs NT - I would generall agree that there are certain patterns of color that are indicators of AT coins - all you need to do is look do an ebay search "toned" or "toning" in Dollars and there a several sellers that regularly seel unslabbed coins that have a very funky heavy color patterns that almost look painted on there's color - but no life - those coins are strongly indicative of AT BUT an NT coin can be rotated to catch that sme look if the light sorce is at too dramatic an angle - In other words - photography can givr the impression that an NT coin is AT, but on certain AT coins - the color patterns are so different that its very difficult to make the Coin look natural, no matter how skillful the photographer is. I hope this helps
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
That, my friends, is what it's all about - putting your money where your mouth is....
That, my friends, is what it's all about - putting your money where your mouth is...."
Ummm, all of it? It is my understanding on a toned coin, they will reimburse the grade of the coin. Not the premium paid for color.
Hmmm - good point. Best be careful about spending large sums of money for color you aren't sure is stable!
<< <i>It is my understanding on a toned coin, they will reimburse the grade of the coin. Not the premium paid for color. >>
Stman -- I know how much you love legal types of answers so --
No I would argue that since PCGS/NGC, by certifying the coin, is also placing a guaranty on the authenticity of the toning. If they bodybag coins for AT, then by placing the coin into their slab they are in essence confirming that in their opinion the color is real. Further since D.Hall has already said on these forums that the one way to insure that you aren't purchasing doctored coins is to by those toned coins that are certified by PCGS, you can assume that statement was made in order to reassure you of the quality of their grading team in spotting AT coins.
Also since it is an industry standard that beautifully toned coins command a premium over the assigned grade you do have a right to be reimbursed for the amount paid for the coin, not just the technical grade. Much like a DCAM will garner over a non-cameo coin. While there aren't pricing sheets for toned coins, there are auction histories as well as other sites to compare prices to. However, if you dramtically over paid for a toned coin, you might not be reimbursed the total amount, PCGS/NGC would still have to pay a fair market value.
It might take some wrangling, but I'm sure that both companies would step up to the plate if there was in fact a coin that turned in its holder. Again, much like they did with that PR70DCAM Lincoln.
Michael
<< <i>It might take some wrangling, but I'm sure that both companies would step up to the plate if there was in fact a coin that turned in its holder. Again, much like they did with that PR70DCAM Lincoln. >>
Yes, but with all the publicity, I believe they got backed up in the corner on this one. Just my opinion of course.
There is an area of grayness here though. From my understanding, PCGS has decided not to continue to grade certain coins from a certain hoard from a certain submitter. In essence saying they are saying they won't certify the color any longer, but they aren't buying the coins they already slabbed back and take them off the open market. In essence leaving AT coins in PCGS slabs in the market place.
IMHO, that's a big mistake and they really should buy back their mistakes @ full market value. They have basically left those holding the coins no recourse but to eat the loss.
Michael
<< <i>essence leaving AT coins in PCGS slabs in the market place >>
Michael - I don't think PCGS has "declared" them AT - I think PCGS no longer believes them to be "market acceptable" - from what I understand (hearsay only) many of the coins were submitted in the original mint sealed cellophane - which might give the impression that the toning actually occurred under natural/normal conditions. Apparently PCGS may no longer believe that to be the "fact" with those coins, so they won't grade them anymore. BUT I don't think they've labeled the coins in the holders AT - they may be actually be "NT". For Example, Binion's coins are considered "NT", but they were stored in quite unsual circumstances, resulting in some very weirdly toned coins & some can only get into NCS holders because they are not considered market acceptable - some are gorgeous and get slabbed - I own a slabbed Binion coin that has outstanding toning. I've seen others for which jewel luster would be a blessing
As for the Nickels, I believe that PCGS doesn't feel that they now meet PCGS's criteria of "market acceptable" and they won't grade them any longer.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
We know there are toned ones. Does anyone think someone slipped a AT coin in one of those when they were originaly sealed?
Tom
While I understand the general concept of "market acceptability", I wonder how a company such as pcgs would define this, and subsequently adjust the criteria for what is market acceptable.....
Michael
<< <i>While I understand the general concept of "market acceptability", I wonder how a company such as pcgs would define this, and subsequently adjust the criteria for what is market acceptable..... >>
They seemed to have no problem over the years adjusting the criteria for what makes a coin, say, MS-65...
I think the "market acceptability" criteria is a much more logical explanation. These explanations of what NT is versus AT sounds like faulty science to me, but I'm not a chemical engineer. And neither are the professionals who grade coins for a living. However professional graders and advanced collectors know what "eye appeal" is and that criteria makes the most sense to me.
<< <i>When the coin is in a PCGS or NGC holder, it has a guaranty that the color won't turn bad. If the coin turns black, or even if it turns just enough to suddenly not warrant the grade, you get your money back.
That, my friends, is what it's all about - putting your money where your mouth is.... >>
that is what you call a BODY SLAM. tradedollarnut nailed the hole entire issue exactly, & it is why i stand by my assertion that it is MKT-ACCEPTABLE VS MKT-UNACCEPTABLE.
if pcgs puts it in a slab, they are guaranteeing that it is MKT-ACCEPTABLE, NOT THAT IT IS NATURAL TONE.
is ANYBODY catching on yet???
far as i'm concerned, what tradedollarnut said is the post of the month.
K S