Is there really legislation being considered to confiscate gold?
Coulport
Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭
I ask because I have encountered several people who are eager to turn in bullion gold for 'real money' such as Swiss or French 20 Francs or if they have considerable holdings to exchange for double eagles.
Apparently they have been listening to Talk Radio and got this information there.
I am not skilled at searching the US government data base on legislation. Thus my question.
Apparently they have been listening to Talk Radio and got this information there.
I am not skilled at searching the US government data base on legislation. Thus my question.
The most money I made are on coins I haven't sold.
Got quoins?
Got quoins?
0
Comments
openly discussed at this time. Just talking about it would be highly destabilizing for
the dollar.
This time they'd also have to confiscate scrap iron, silver, coal, top soil...
The Fed is Dead?
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
"An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense--perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire--that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other. . . . This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights."
He was right. Gold and freedom go together. Gold money is both the result of freedom and its leading protector. When money is as good as gold, the government cannot manipulate the supply for its own purposes. Just as the rule of law puts limits on the despotic use of police power, a gold standard puts extreme limits on the government's ability to spend, borrow, and otherwise create crazy unworkable programs. It is forced to raise its revenue through taxation, not inflation, and generally keep its house in order.
Without the gold standard, government is free to work with the Fed to inflate the currency without limit. Even in our own times, we've seen governments do that and thereby spread mass misery.
since they seem to be making a point that being on the gold standard is essential to our sound economy with the above, they seem to be also saying that inflation and government spending are currently under control, that the Fed can't print money at will and that "crazy unworkable programs" aren't being created.
this is all tongue-in-cheek, right???? the author's spinning a fairy tale, right????
al h.
I was watching a program about the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.
They stated it costs the same to make $100 bills as it does $1.00 bills.
If the US went to a gold standard, they would have to print less money, thus make less for the Government.
And when it comes to politicians, when you get down to it, it is always about the money.
Of course I could be wrong
Eisenhower Dollar, BU
Set Incomplete:
Roosevelt Dime
1900 - Current Type, No Gold
Silver Eagle
It's highly improbable that this would ever happen. It's far less likely that it would be openly discussed at this time. Just talking about it would be highly destabilizing for the dollar.
It was highly destabilizing for the dollar back in 1933/34 when FDR confiscated the gold of US Citizens and then promptly "devalued" the dollar by raising the price of gold from $20 to $34/oz. The net effect was a 40% devaluation in the US dollar. Many Americans lost 40% of their wealth overnight. As destabilizing as this was, it was what was done. The govt didn't want people protecting their assets
in a "barbarous relic" like gold, but rather to invest in socialistic govt programs, businesses, stocks, etc. You know the cheer, all for one and one for all. As long as it's good for the "nation" (e.g. special interests, the ultra-connected rich, and corporations) then it's good enough for each one of us.
The potential for gold confiscation to happen again is real depending on where our economy and dollar ends up over the next several years. If gold is competing too strong against the US dollar, confiscation of some part of the gold market is not out of the question. The Patriot Act is one sign that going backwards on our freedoms is no joke. Bush may be a republican but the wishes of the founding fathers is not one of his tenets.
Isn't it "destabilizing" in the long run to keep growing our deficits by $500 Billion per year and selling our nation overseas block by block? We're getting killed on trade also. What about soc sec and medicare going bust in the next 13 years. We need trillions NOW to fund these programs in the future through the compounding of simple interest. Isn't it destabilizing to continue to do nothing until the system bankrupts us? Forget militaristic terrorism for a second, we are currently under the regime of financial terrorism with Bush and Greenspam at the helm and continuing to stay the course towards the shoals. We just might end up safer from the Jihad but we'll be soundly trounced financially on our current course. Our kids and grand kids will be paying dearly for it.
I wouldn't trade your gold in for Swiss Francs or Euros just yet. If currency issues continue to plague the world, and they should, your gold will come in handy. Paper currency is worth the paper it's printed on, nothing more. What paper currencies in effect hundreds or thousands of years ago have held their value?
roadrunner
Overall, the Fed system has worked pretty well since we've been off the gold standard (and even before). Since 1960, the growth in the money supply is virtually the same as the growth in GNP. Both are roughly 4 times larger today. Not too shabby of a track record!
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
As long as we as citizens continue to demand more and more from our govt in the way of entitlements and services, they will have to supply them or get tossed out of office. At some point the game has to end with either a hyper-inflated currency or a bankrupt nation. We cannot continue to print money at will without recourse....even at 3% per year (if you buy that number as the rate of inflation). The Asians will not continue to buy $500 BILL of our treasuries each year. And that shortfall has to be made up by our printing presses. It cannot continue. Foreign investment will ultimately leave as we pay them off in ever-increasing hyper-inflated dollars. China and other emerging nations is where the money is being shifted to....not the USA. We need a whole new game plan for the next 50 years.
The FED has authorized an increase in our money supply of 30% over the past 3 years to help keep us afloat. I would not call that handling the situation. It bodes to more of an overall inflation rate of 10% than say 3%. But it was the only alternative being considered as anything else would have meant no chance of re-election for the current administration. Recessions don't get anyone re-elected.
RR
<< <i>I ask because I have encountered several people who are eager to turn in bullion gold for 'real money' such as Swiss or French 20 Francs or if they have considerable holdings to exchange for double eagles.
Apparently they have been listening to Talk Radio and got this information there.
I am not skilled at searching the US government data base on legislation. Thus my question. >>
Were they listening to Alex Jones?
That was the year the mantle of the world's most powerful economy "officially" passed from Great Britain to the United States.
Will it happen in 2007? Probably not just yet. But we are rushing headlong in that direction. I predict around 2017.
China is wringing her hands in lowballing their prices to drive The United States to her knees!
It is called predatory pricing which could drive every manufacturer out of business in the USA.
If that were done in the USA, the Justice Department would rule it predatory pricing and unfair competition and be forced to relent!
Balance of power shifts have a been a natural thing in the world over the years. From Spain to the Dutch to the British to Germany to Japan and then to the USA. China is next in line and there is not much we can do about it. These power shifts are based on economies and finances. Our reliance on credit, financial services, monetary inflation, and asset bubbles for the past 2 decades has forced us to move our manufacturing base overseas. At some point in time, China will revert to pricing power and those cheap imports won't be so cheap anymore. The standard of living experienced in the 80's and 90's and early 2000's will not be able to be maintained. Oreville's time frame of around 2017 seems reasonable to me. By that time the revenue inflows to fund our govt programs will be far short of what is required. So will foreign investment in our country...unless we discover cold fusion or something similar.
Today's tax rates will seem silly compared to what we will have to have by 2017 to pay for our programs. Don't laugh, but a 50% overall tax rate is right around the corner.....and that might not be enough to cover it all without benefits being cut as well.
roadrunner
Hahahaha
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
in a "barbarous relic" like gold, but rather to invest in socialistic govt programs, businesses, stocks, etc. You know the cheer, all for one and one for all. As long as it's good for the "nation" (e.g. special interests, the ultra-connected rich, and corporations) then it's good enough for each one of us.
The potential for gold confiscation to happen again is real depending on where our economy and dollar ends up over the next several years. If gold is competing too strong against the US dollar, confiscation of some part of the gold market is not out of the question. The Patriot Act is one sign that going backwards on our freedoms is no joke. Bush may be a republican but the wishes of the founding fathers is not one of his tenets.
roadrunner >>
There you go again using that "S" word that 95% of the people haven't a clue as to what it is or what the principles of it are, or for that matter how much of the "plank" has already been implemented.
Then again you could use the "F" word and really talk over everybody's head.
Hahaha
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Amen.
The rest of your post was excellent as well. You know and understand more than most Americans about what has and is happening today. Every generation has its meltdown and we are due. The direction we are headed in assures us of something radical economically in the US.
My only point here is to put out a different view that is clearly contrarian to mainstream USA. But this should not be a surprise as coin collectors as a group are very contrarian. If you collected coins in the 70's or 80's your mental health was always questioned. We have a lot of economic issues to wade through. It will not be business as usual over the next 10 years. The going will be tough but we each have to deal with this head on. Ignoring the economic realities of where we are today doesn't mean they will go away.
Mr. Early, I have my dunce cap on today. What do you mean by "F" and "S?" I can guess, but would prefer to hear it from you.
roadrunner
roadrunner >>
Mr Roadrunner, you never wear a dunce cap.
Freedom
Socialism
But you already knew that
Rgrds
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
back to. Just as utopia and nirvana might be great goals to reach for. However, it will likely prove just
as elusive for a vey long time. This isn't 1933 anymore, it's not even 1967 or 1971. While heavy tweeking
might have been possible to maintain or restore a true gold standard in those days it is not so possible
now.
In 1933 there was massive unemployment and a lack of money to buy goods. Deflation was rampant
as goods chased less and less money. Those who couldn't afford to eat were left at the mercy of good
hearted people who had more than they needed. There was always the ability to "eat off the land". One
could hunt animals or find other food. People were not dependent on stores, factories, government, or the
good will of other nations to survive. Today we are very much dependent on others even for the bare nec-
essities of life. Food comes from factories, oil to make the system work comes rom abroad, we are all inter-
dependent and are dependent on the smooth operation of the system which is in turn dependent on sound
currency to even maintain life. There is no going back to eat off the land when the land won't grow food
without the banks, seed companies, fertilizer companies, et al to make a crop. The distribution of the crop is
then dependent on factories for processing and distribution. People can't eat soy beans for long when they
have to walk behind a few million other people to the nearest fields.
Not that this means all is lost. Fiat currency is actually far more stable than "real money". Fiat currency is
destroyed only through the actions of governments or by a total loss of faith by the governed. If govern-
ment doesn't continually issue more money than they have, there is no inflation. If government doesn't sug-
gest that the currency will soon be worthless and gold will be confiscated, there is no bond selling panic.
This is why these things won't happen. This is why there will not be and can not be a return to the gold stan-
dard until we get our house in order. If you want a gold standard than just start voting for the candidates
who favor fiscal responsibility rather than those who promise you more perks at the public expense. Vote
for more statesmen and fewer politicians. Vote your conscience. This is not a change that can happen over-
night but it is a change that must occur if we are not to become a third rate country.
Oh, and JFK tried to get the country off Federal Reserve notes and increase the country's dependence on silver. That's why the red seal United States notes of 1963 were issued and why the 1964 Peace dollar was authorized. Lyndon Johnson was a servant of the Federal Reserve (which is a Delaware corporation owned by private banks NOT the government), and not only rescinded Kennedy's intitiative to get rid of FRNs, but also removed all the silver from circulating coinage and sold off all the silver coins in the Treasury vaults to make sure no future president could do it again.
Mr Early, I had to ask because of all the "liberalism" flack I receive for posting like a "founding father" around here. Couldn't tell if you were jumping on the anti-liberal bangwagon or not. Good to see you still have your senses. I'm for freedom and less govt and sound money. IF that makes me liberal, then so be it. I thought that was the definition of a right winger though.
roadrunner
<< <i>I would imagine that "better" record keeping on gold and bullion transactions will only get tighter in years to come. That's progress.
Mr Early, I had to ask because of all the "liberalism" flack I receive for posting like a "founding father" around here. Couldn't tell if you were jumping on the anti-liberal bangwagon or not. Good to see you still have your senses. I'm for freedom and less govt and sound money. IF that makes me liberal, then so be it. I thought that was the definition of a right winger though.
roadrunner >>
I'm so far right I'm left Mr Roadrunner. A classic liberal otherwise known as a rabid ( my word) Libertarian.
lenin when asked "when there would be a military confrontation with the USA" replied, "it will never happen and isn't necessary. All that's needed is language to break down and American will fall apart from the inside".
He was right.
About the only thing he was right about.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Incorrect, if you are referring to the US Gov't. Below is something I lifted from one of my fav bullion dealers. The rules are bizzarre and if they were implemented to curtail drug dealing we all know how successful that is!
<snip>
The following is the best The Industry Council For Tangible Assets has to offer about what the I.R.S. wants in the way of paperwork. They are describing the paperwork provided by bullion dealers which relate to what you purchase or sell.
First: You can place any size order and pay for it with a check. No one cares, not even the government. The only time they want to hear from us is if you invest more than $10,000 in cash. Then you must fill out I.R.S. Form 8300. There is nothing wrong with large cash transactions, but the government wants to know about them. And, by the way, you can't spend $5000 today and $6000 tomorrow, for Uncle Sam does not like to be fooled.
Second: There are rules which apply only to bullion and only when you sell. They have nothing to do with your purchases, and do not apply to rare coins. Kilo bars are 32.15 troy ounces of gold and are subject to reporting. Concerning 1 troy oz. gold coin transactions: If you sell 25 coins or more of the Krugerrand, Maple Leaf or Mexican Gold Onza we are required to report them on I.R.S. Form 1099B. Such reporting is not required on transactions involving the U.S. Gold Eagle or Australian Kangaroo. There is no reporting on any small gold bullion coins.
Third: We are required to report $1000 face 90% silver bags and 1000 ounce silver bar transactions only when you sell to us. We are not asked to report the sale of 40% bags, less than $1000 face 90% bags or 10 and 1 ounce silver bars.
Fourth: Platinum bars in quantities of 33 ounces or more are reportable, but platinum bullion coins like the Canadian Maple Leaf, the U.S. platinum Eagle, or the Australian Koala are exempt. If these rules seem arbitrary we don't blame you. We believe our government based their decisions on what was traded on the nation's commodity exchanges and had little to do with what was happening in coin stores across America.
<snip>
Hope this dispels any myths, rumors or assumptions.
roadrunner
If Bush wins reelection ,I am sure he will blame events all on Clinton..............again.
Camelot
<< <i>What ever you may believe, hard times will come right after the election.
If Bush wins reelection ,I am sure he will blame events all on Clinton..............again. >>
Well, if he does win re election and the economy goes further down, then what will the cause be?
Jerry
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal who wants more welfare programs. I just think the rich who control the politicians and the system have never been in favor of giving the have-nots any opportunity to share the wealth. The little people still combine to pay a lot more taxes as a % of thier net worth than the rich who get the lions share of tax spending through government contracts, shaddy deals and other subsidies.
The rich get richer, not through hard work, but because they control the system. The still make out more in the inflationary spiral than the mom and pop retiree.
The last paragraph is especially interesting. Link below. The charts on gold and commodities about 2/3 of the way through the article are sort of striking in what they show.
WHAT IS TO COME
It is my belief that we are now embarked on a journey that will take us into a hyperinflationary depression. There may be brief deflationary spurts that punctuate this journey along the way, but an examination of history leads me to conclude hyperinflation is much more likely than deflation. Unlike the U.S. economy during the 1930s or Japan in the 1990s, the U.S. economy is no longer self sufficient in capital, manufacturing, and energy. And unlike the 1930s, our currency is no longer backed by gold. The U.S. is now the world’s largest debtor nation versus the world’s largest creditor nation as we were in the 30’s. We are no longer self sufficient in energy as we were during the last depression. We import 60 percent of our energy needs, a percentage that is growing each decade. We must also compete with other nations for the world’s last remaining barrels of oil as we enter into the twilight of the oil age. During the 30’s the U.S. created the Texas Railroad Commission to regulate oil and prop up prices because of the abundance of oil in this country. In contrast to the 1930s, U.S. oil and natural gas production decline each year. This forces the U.S. to import more of its energy needs, energy we pay for with dollars. When the world no longer accepts those dollars as payment, the full impact of inflation will hit home.
I would like to end with a quote from Jens O. Parsson’s book “Dying of Money.” It perhaps explains best where we are today and where we are headed.
“Everyone loves an early inflation. The effects at the beginning of inflation are all good. There is steepened money expansion, rising government spending, increased government budget deficits, booming stock markets, and spectacular general prosperity, all in the midst of temporarily stable prices. Everyone benefits, and no one pays. That is the early part of the cycle. In the later inflation, on the other hand, the effects are all bad. The government may steadily increase the money inflation in order to stave off the latter effects, but the latter effects patiently wait. In the terminal inflation, there is faltering prosperity, tightness of money, falling stock markets, rising taxes, still larger government deficits, and still roaring money expansion, now accompanied by soaring prices and ineffectiveness of al traditional remedies. Everyone pays and no one benefits. That is the full cycle of every inflation.”[10]
Link to full article
roadrunner
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Even though all those things are correct, it didn't stop FDR in the 1930's. Who would have thought about a Patriot Act Bill ever passing 10 years ago, even following a 9-11 type event? I won't put anything past our administration at this point. We shouldn't have hyper-inflation in our future either, but that is no guarantee it's not coming. The gold confiscation could start as a simple "ban" on Kruggerands and other foreign gold coins outside the hands of central banks. Once banned, confiscation laws could follow. After all, it us un-American in the eyes of our current leaders to favor gold over our own currency....at least in the shape of private ownership. And the actions of our Fed and financial institutions supports this. It's surprising how a small quantity of gold can swing Trillions in currency around.
While I agree that the odds of this are slim, and it would be unfair, one should plan for all possibilities.
roadrunner
WE have begun the path towards "confiscation" of our gold, silver etc.
It has already happened TWICE in the last 4 years and no one noticed it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gold in any physical form is now considered a collectible.
When the long term capital gains tax rate was cut from 28% to 20% our Congress with President Clinton's blessing created a new category called "collectibles which included gold" which remained at 28% long term capital gains rate.
Then when long term capital gains tax rate was further cut to 15% by Congress with President George W. Bush blessing, once again "collectibles" was kept at 28% long term capital gains rate.
There will be more of the continued tax moves against collectibles.
Furthermore, I believe there may be a new national tax on tangibles asset purchases or a tax on tangible asset ownership or even both.
Confiscation? No. The gravy train for taxation of ownership of gold will someday be as profitable for the tax authorities as real estate in the high tax states.
say if the govt did decide to confiscate gold in any quantity from people, including collectors. how could they do it? can they come to your home and take it? it seems that there is no legal way to do it.
i remember asking my grandma about when gold was confiscated in the 30s. she said people were told to take it to the bank and turn it. being the law abiding citizen that she was, she did it w/o question. i couldn't do that. i mean, i have all of 2 gold commems...it's not a lot compared to others here, but i paid a lot for them and no one's taking them.
I doubt it; gold has little value in modern societies. If there were ever a need to back the US Dollar again, it would be in strategic minerals.
He mentioned that during the gold coin turn in that govt officials were "cherry picking" out the "right" coins like $3 gold pieces for example and substituting an equivalent amount of common date gold. I wonder where all those cherry picked coins ended up?
roadrunner
<Rant on>
Gold was never "confiscated" in the true sense of the word,
1 : to seize as forfeited to the public treasury
2 : to seize by or as if by authority
Gold held by citizens was not forfeited, but was paid at face in silver certificates (the US still had the silver standard at the time, so the money was far from "worthless")
If you make a chart comparing buying power of a dollar as a function of time and overlay that with the cost of gold, you will see that the two lines stay relatively close together.
So while inflation has made items more expensive, simultaneously, the cost of your salary has increased. So
<< <i>If we were still on a bi-metal standard, the money would be worth more, not less, and you could buy everything with pocket change. >>
is true, but all you would ever make is pocket change, so the point is moot.
<< <i>I love this "confiscation of the wealth" cry, 90% of this country's wealth is controlled by less than 5% of the people. We have to keep inflating so we can make more money for the greedy Bast*rds. They need love to squezze more out of those who have the least. >>
And what is the definition of upper class or middle class? I think that more of us on this board are upper or upper-middle class than we want to admit. "No were not!!" You may cry, but I say that many of us are. Look at where tax breaks phase out (usually between $80,000 and $130,000) Also look at what type of pass time we enjoy. We sit and argue passionately about how a couple of hundred atoms' thickness worth of oxidation, sulfide or salt changes the value of a coin by thousands of dollars. And it makes a big difference if those atoms ended up where they are because someone intended to put them there or if time and the whims of thermodynamics did.
Most of us aren't starving. And in the eyes of the democratic party, that means that we are rich and should be taxed more to give big screen tv's and snowmobiles (I'm serious, look at the things that people on welfare buy for themselves because society has taught them that "they deserve it" since they are downtrodden and victims of the rich) to those that are too lazy or too ignorant to do for themselves.
The American dream used to be to work hard to earn a better life for oneself and one's family. Now the American dream is to have your child or parent seriously maimed or killed in a car accident or an unsuccessful surgery. Cha-Ching!!! Instant millions. Well at least for their lawyers. And then, in the same breath, people complain about how expensive health care and insurance are.
The way that this country is heading is almost enough to make me not want to have children. Goerge Bush is not sending jobs over seas, the American consumer is. There is nothing in theconstitution that says that every senior citizen is entitled to every advance in medicine and that the government has to pay for it. People make choices in what they spend. And don't give me any line about how they "deserve it" because they worked hard all of their lives. They chose to live in the more expensive house, they chose to have another child, they chose to retire to Florida, they chose to vacation in Europe, they chose to buy a new car when the old one still worked, they chose to squander their income rather than save it.
And don't get me started about the "horendous" deficit spending that is going on in the government. For starters, why should the US government spend within its means when most households in America are drowning in debt? When the average balance on a households credit cards is $8,000, not to mention the car and house payments, why should the government be any different. Couple this with the excessive indulgences being built into today's schools (come on, do they really need a three story foyer or a two story weight room with a wall of windows in order to learn better?) that is required to be paid by increases in income tax, there is no doubt in my mind that Americans keep less of their wealth today than they did 30 years ago.
<< <i>I just think the rich who control the politicians and the system have never been in favor of giving the have-nots any opportunity to share the wealth >>
I disagree whole heartedly with this statement. The only way to have a share in the wealth in this country is through knowledge and education. Many federal and state programs exist to promote funding for college to the have-nots. If those in power did not want others to succeed, there would be no public education. If the rich wanted to keep the down-trodden there, the rich would not donate large amounts of money for libraries or to universities. The rich who "control the . . . system. . ." did not get rich by giving money away to those too lazy to try.
"Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. Give a man a fish and he will be back tomorrow looking for another free fish, because society says that he deserves it"
</rant off>
edited for spelling and grammar
If you make a chart comparing buying power of a dollar as a function of time and overlay that with the cost of gold, you will see that the two lines stay relatively close together.
Totally disagree with this statement. Our US dollar is worth less than 5% of what it was in 1913. An ounce of gold has has gone up about 20X since 1913. I see no correlation to say that a dollar in gold and a 1$ FRN (from 1913...or even 1934) are still worth about the same. The gold has kept pace with the monetary inflation that has occurred over the past 90 years. It should be closer to $550 to equal out but that's still coming....hold on for another 6-18 months.
When gold was confiscated in 1934 the US dollar was devalued by 40% by raising the price of gold from $20 to around $34/oz. While the citizen turning in his $10 in gold did get $10 in silver certificates, those paper dollars were effectively worth $6 in 1934/35. That was a scam on those who turned in gold. There was 40% in purchasing power lost by all those who exchanged gold.
roadrunner
Hahahahaha can I interest you in an AT morgan dollar?
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870