What do you all think about coin "pedigree"?
mintluster
Posts: 926
When someone spends a lot of money they get their name on a slab, or 2/3 names.
But how can it really be a "pedigree" if it only goes back a few owners?
Seems strange to me. Some people go crazy over them.
I think it would be neat if there were true pedigree coins with REAL famous people who owned the coin, like a past President, or a big movie star or sports star.....that would be neat.
What do you all think?
But how can it really be a "pedigree" if it only goes back a few owners?
Seems strange to me. Some people go crazy over them.
I think it would be neat if there were true pedigree coins with REAL famous people who owned the coin, like a past President, or a big movie star or sports star.....that would be neat.
What do you all think?
0
Comments
"pedigree" has got to start somewhere.
The quality of a provenance is determined by the story the provenance tells and the impact that the previous owner had on potential new owners.
For example, an MS 69 1900-S $5 that John Clapp purchased directly from the Mint tells a cool story and has a valuable provenance. In Clapp's time, amazingly few people cared about mintmarks. Yet Clapp did, so much so that every year he ordered special coins directly from each Mint. That's the reason the coin survived. The provenance tells a COOL STORY, and that's why the provenance is valuable.
The Eliasberg provenance (of the same coin) is far less cool, but still significant. The Eliasberg provenance helps because it's part of the story of how Eliasberg built, shared and promoted a great collection.
What would it take to make your name "count" on a provenance? You and your coins have to have a LASTING IMPACT on collectors. Build a definitive collection of Jefferson nickels and write the definitive book and your name will add SUBSTANTIAL value to the coin. Build the ultimate collection, write nothing, and blow it out at auction? However great the collection, your name will never add much to the value of the coin.
Of course, there are many names that fall between greatness and obscurity. Is a TDN provenance on a Trade Dollar valuable? Probably a little bit. His enthusiasm has infected others and his website educated them. The coin is part of that story, part of OUR story. But there are only a few serious collectors that care, at least so far. Is a Larry Shepherd provenance on a commem valuable. Yes, but only to his (perhaps numerous) disciples.
On the other hand, does the Amon Carter (or, for that matter, Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's actually a Conder Token from his private collection. Boulton's Family sold it to a coin dealer who then sold it to me.
Now that is a pedigree with a story and worth noting.
09/07/2006
09/07/2006
I too would like to own an Eliasberg pedigree coin. Other than that, my interest wanes.
Best,
Billy
42/92
Bingo!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
09/07/2006
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
Russ Logan Bio
But that's not really the point. In US numsimatics, the value of a provenance is in the connection it provides to past owners. If you admire the numismatist, and the coin has something to do with their accomplishments, the coin is more precious to YOU. It's human nature.
Interestingly, provenance has far more value in ancients, where uncertainties regarding authenticity are more common. An old provenance can go a long way in establishing authenticity.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
if it was an original thick skinned coin with great eye appeal that was superb in terms of technical merits and i can prove it was directly bought from the mint by clapp in the late 19 century well then the pedigree would be worth much to me but for what this type of coin would sell for the price would be so high anyways the pedigree would bring no more premium
michael
He did add something to the coins - that wonderful 'Amon Carter' blue rim toning!
I disagree. When you have met some of the giants in coin collecting such as Allan Lovejoy who was Mr. dime to me when I was learning all about dimes, you want to emulate some of these great collectors not in acquisitions but in style of collecting as far as the pocketbook can afford it.
Mr. Allan Lovejoy was indeed a mentor as well to Russell Logan who I only met twice. Some of the greatest guys in all of numismatics.
When Allan Lovejoy passed away, I wanted to have one of his dimes and wanted what I thought personified him the most. That was his 1834 dime. I still have it.
Not ego, my friend. It is all about remembering your mentors.
Elliasberg and Pittman, who I did not care for that much personally, I admired tremendously as coin collectors regardless because of their single minded pursuits to collect. And collect. And collect some more! I paid absolutely nothing extra for their pedigreed coins but cherish them nevertheless because they are collectors of a bygone era!
Guess what????? both my pedigreed Pittman and Eliasberg are dimes too!!!! The Pittman dime was a Barber dime in low mint state that I won on ebay, of all places.
A pedigree is also an insurance policy, of sorts, to know where your coin has been and how it was evaluated through the years.
I've posted this before, but to me it is the most compelling example of why pedigree isn't merely interesting, its mandatory. Read the detailed descriptions of these coins in the fine print that appeared in each catalog:
This coin was offered in Superior's February 2001 Auction:
I was able to trace it back to its previous auction appearance in 1984 where the coin was offered by Stack's as part of the Harold Bareford collection:
In 1984, the coin was considered damaged goods and sold for a fraction of the value of similar pieces with unaltered dates sold in 1982 and 1983.
From that day forward, I decided to never buy another coin unless I could trace its history, see where it had been and how it had been evluated through the years. No pedigree, no purchase.
<< <i>Andy: I value the Amon Carter provenance a lot. I cherish each and every one of his coins that I own [4 and counting] and look forward to adding another whenever I can!
He did add something to the coins - that wonderful 'Amon Carter' blue rim toning!
Gorgeous trade dollar TDN!
09/07/2006
09/07/2006
Is it even possible at this point?
Even with an invoice from the auction it might be hard to prove it's the same coin.
WS
<< <i>Could someone share with us what PCGS rules are for adding the Eliasberg name to a slab.
Is it even possible at this point?
Even with an invoice from the auction it might be hard to prove it's the same coin. >>
In my experience, if the coin is a clear and obvious match to the plate photo in the Eliasberg catalog, PCGS will add the name to the holder.
If you have a lot ticket, but the plates don't match, or you simply can't be sure that they match, they may not slab it. In other words, lot ticket isn't mandatory, unmistakeable match of coin to old catalog photo is.
I guess I have just always thought it was a bit silly. The "pedigree" tends to only go back a few owners, so on a Morgan for example that is not really much of a pedigree to me. Plus these guy's names on the slabs seems weird, it's like the rich guy who owned that coin gets more credit than the artist who designed the coin. People start running around looking for these coins as if they worship the name on the slab. It's like the coin itself becomes less and less important.
Anyway, I don't like them......I think they are silly ego trips......but to each his own...beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder!!
Thanks again all.
Look at some in the top 10 and read the descriptions. Some of them don't even talk about the coins or how they look, they just say things like "this set is comprised of 18 Caspers, 10 Eliasbergs, 8 Lees, 6 Entrekins...etc. etc.