Is it possible that more people like coins that have been cleaned than original???
Wisconsin
Posts: 645
Just wondering??
When it comes to early type coins, it seems like the coins with the brilliant centers with wonderful toned rims bring the most money compared to the original looking darker dusky looking coins with more of a subdued luster. When I say cleaned I am refering to a coin that was maybe washed with soap and wayer or dipped many years ago. Many of these coins have since natuarally retoned and have awesome eye appeal and in many cases better than coins that have never been messed with at all. These coins are obviously very acceptable and desirable in todays market, but I am just wondering what most people prefer??
Jay
When it comes to early type coins, it seems like the coins with the brilliant centers with wonderful toned rims bring the most money compared to the original looking darker dusky looking coins with more of a subdued luster. When I say cleaned I am refering to a coin that was maybe washed with soap and wayer or dipped many years ago. Many of these coins have since natuarally retoned and have awesome eye appeal and in many cases better than coins that have never been messed with at all. These coins are obviously very acceptable and desirable in todays market, but I am just wondering what most people prefer??
Jay
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Comments
michael
<< <i>When I say cleaned I am refering to a coin that was maybe washed with soap and water or dipped many years ago. >>
Sorry Wisconsin, but there's a HUGE difference between these two definitions for the term "cleaned".
I can't imagine anybody caring whether or not a coin was washed in soap and water. However, a coin being dipped is entirely a different story.
I don't wish to own a coin that has been dipped, but a coin that was "washed" is perfectly acceptable to me.
<< <i>Is it possible that more people like coins that have been cleaned than original??? >>
People that don't know any better ............. yes
People that don't like toning ............... yes
Jay
A toned coin isn't original any more than a rusted car is original.
Wisconsin, you're absolutely right. Many classic coins that have never been dipped are so dark that most do consider them ugly. A coin dipped in 1950 and since retoned often looks quite attractive.
<< <i>Once it gets dipped, washed, wire brushed, or whatever the case is, it no longer is original and has been altered. >>
A coin that has been washed has not been altered anymore than a coin that has had dust blown off of it. Elemental matter is not removed by soap and water.
Dipping and/or wire brush will, however, alter the surface composition of the coin.
And by the way, I'm a huge fan of original sufaces so let's just say we're both on the same side.
Mechanical alteration, not chemical alteration.
Ahhhh....so dipping is a mechanical alternation........wow, I'm really getting confused here.
Unfortunately, this is somewhat untimely in light of the recent thread that another board member posted in connection with original gold and how a certain grading service was GRADING. I think it depends on the grade and I am shure there are some that will remain nameless that will disagree with me on this... I believe that it is possible to tell original coins from those that have been dipped that are circulated... there are many signs and recognizing them comes with the territory of just looking at coins. It can be more difficult with MS grades, however, if you own a blast brilliant white Bust Half from 1819, that alone is a tip that the coin is mostlikely not original.
Buy what you like and if originality is a concern and a priority, please educate yourself or buy from dealers that are willing to make this a priority for you. Please do not rely on what is in a slab... it is abundantly clear that the TPG Companies are just not interested in your concerns or my concerns with respect to originality otherwise they would have done something about it by now. And if that sounds harsh... too bad because thats the way it is.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As for the original question, yes.
Often times when I see a white centered, target toned 19th century coin I wonder, "Would I like this coin less or more if it had never been dipped?" It's really impossible to know, but there are some I can't imagine appealling more to me in their original state. This is coming from someone who is generally against dipping.
BC
Your advise is very sound. I am realizing now that you have to be very specific in your hunt for original coins. Working with good dealers is very important and making sure they understand what you are looking for. I really wish that PCGS and others could find a way to mark the true original coins which I feel some day will be the ones everyone wished they had.
A lot of folks like 'em "white" and "bright"--that's why dip is a big seller!
You can always dip 'em, but you can't undip 'em!
I'll take an original every day.
As a collector of bust halves, I have a dislike for cleaned specimans with brilliant centers- but often collectors of these coins have to sometimes "settle" for an example that has been cleaned in the past.
Iwog- your anti-toning rhetoric is really getting old. Your analogies are extremely biased and unhelpful, and it's irritating seeing you flame everybody who doesn't agree with you.....
Better yet, lets here why all the anti-dipping and elitist garbage spewed on this board every day including comments like "new collectors like white coins because they are uneducated" are pretty much encouraged while ANY suggestion that a toned coin isn't original because it's ALTERED is immediately and viciously attacked? Pretty pathetic.
"I don't wish to own a coin that has been dipped"
people who buy dipped coins "don't know any better"
"dipping will alter the surface composition of the coin" (LOL....as if toning doesn't.....)
And of course "collectors sometimes SETTLE for dipped coins" (because of course they are inferior)
Okay, let me be blunt. Myqqy, you accused ME of flaming when YOU and your friends INVADED a thread on why dipped/retoned coins are desirable, and basically said that people buying these coins are wrong, ignorant, uninformed about chemistry, or simply settling. (see above)
Hey Myqqy, have you ever considered getting a brain installed?
Certainly, I do NOT ever suggest dipping copper, gold, aluminum, and cupro-nickel coins. They do not take kindly to dipping and or chemical conservation. Gold coins that get "conserved" gets the 10% copper content leached out off the surface of the coin, resulting in a bright and not necesaarily luster laden gold look without the "skin" of the "as struck" gold coin.
I am sure even IWOG would even agree with this post. I have never heard IWOG suggest dipping anything other than silver coins.
Once we clear the air on this then we can move back to the silver coins.
May we hear from you on this IWOG?
Copper nickel and gold on the other hand can be dipped in moderation. Copper metal reacts almost the same as silver does although it reacts slightly faster, so it's not really leached out of the surface. I think you're talking about conserved gold coins that have been at the bottom of the ocean for 100 years. In that case its the salt-water that has leached all the copper out and there's nothing you can really do about it. Occasionally I'll dip a copper nickel proof to remove haze, but only with very dilute Jeweluster and never more than once.
I'm all for finding agreement, but there's FAR too much contempt for anyone showing the slightest favor for white coins on this board. I'm pretty abrasive when it comes to describing coins I consider gunked up and ugly, (Calling them rusted, corroded, etc) but I have NEVER attacked anyone on this board for their personal choice or desire to collect and buy these coins. If you like em colorful, then buy all you want and enjoy the hobby. I would never be so arrogant and elitist as to insist that people who don't like luster are somehow uninformed or (even worse) incapable of appreciating REAL beauty.
(That was weird, the board wouldn't accept salt-water as an acceptable word because of a naughty word hidden inside. lol)
Al
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Not all coins with pretty ringed toning have been dipped. I owned a gem 1858 quarter once with stark Raymond toning on the outside and 80% white centers. It was clearly an original crusaty-skinned coin.
Iwog, don't fret too much about the H2 gas blowing you up. It takes over 3% concentration in an enclosed area to explode. I don't think dipping a coin generates much H2 gas.
And yes, most people today like cleaned and dipped coins. That's a simple fact. Probably 90% to 10%.
roadrunner
Roadrunner, I see as usually you totally ignored most of my points. I also absolutely guarantee beyond a reasonable doubt that you have NO IDEA if your quarter was ever dipped or not.
Remember, there is NO expectation of privacy on these boards (see Anaconda's thread on the subject) and ANY talk of criminal behavior (i.e. money "laundering") WILL be reported to the appropriate authorities!
Hey Myqqy, have you ever considered getting a brain installed?
Wog, you seem like a very angry man. I'm not going to insult you as you did me, but I will kindly tell you and your dipped coins to piss off...
I didn't "invade" any threads, but whatever.....
There is probably truth to this statement. Before I dipped my first nice coin, I experimented with a few crappy coins first to see what they would happen. I noticed that when I dipped the coin and held it in the jar for more than a split second, the dip turned cloudy white and seemed to have particulate matter suspended in it. I am assuming this is fine particles of silver. A quick (less than a second) in and out and then into water right away, didn't result in noticible cloudiness in the dip or the water. So I think yes, you can overdo it with dipping, but if you do it fast enough, the damage will be minimal and the coin will look a whole lot better. I'd rather dip a coin than have it blacken to a point where it becomes irreversible. And yes, I have had tiny flecks of toning flake off in my hands when handling coins, so allowing them to tone naturally can be just as destructive as dipping.
By the way, telling coins to piss off is kind of hysterical don't you think?
I was laughing, right??
please allow me to propose an alternative... Let's stroll down the bourse floor at Long Beach, FUN or Baltimore and lets look at the current inventories of the major dealers that have slabbed gold coins. From these inventories, lets determine which gold coins are original and which have been dipped. I imagine there might be afew folks here on the forum that would like to joins us. Frankly, I think my batting average would be higher on the Gold...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Seriously folks, unless someone has had personal possession of a coin for 100 years and can sign a noterized statment saying the coin was locked in a safe the entire time, I don't know how you're going to determine if a gold coin has ever been dipped. A dipped coin that has retoned is almost ALWAYS sold as "original" no matter what the real history of the coin is. Contrary to popular belief, dipping a coin doesn't disturb the 10% copper content and coins tone JUST as attractively after they have been dipped.
Al
<< <i>Is it possible that more people like coins that have been cleaned than original??? >>
possible? heck, it's almost a certainty!
K S
Which in my opinion makes a coin that hasn't been messed with even more desirable. In addition, how we judge eye appeal is in part based on how we view the issue of cleaning/dipping coins. If your preference is a coin that hasn't been intentionally messed with then what is eye appealing to you with respect to a 100+ year old coin is probably NOT going to be blast white.
Example, this 1835 Bust Quarter has heavy toning but there is a fair amount of luster still present (more visible on the reverse then obverse in the pictures).
The above coin would be MY preference over the coin below: