Grading 1921 Peace Dollars. Nuances of strike and luster? Vote in the picture poll and post your co

Baley

What do you guys think about this one?





also, do experts in this series/issue have any advice for shopping for one of these?

DHeath

I like it as a 64. It's got a few ticky-tack marks, and the reeding mark on the neck, but the strike is decent and the images indicate decent luster.

rlawsha

I give it a 65 (64 if the graders are having a bad day) because of the neck marks. I think it would have a shot at 66 otherwise. Nice luster but the strike on the obverse is somewhat flat on the hair over her ear.

DHeath

Difficult to tell much from a digital image, but to finish my thought, what I can't discern is whether the obverse has been cleaned. There's an area of very fine hairlines visible in the lower obverse and left obverse field, along with a very dull lifeless area above the cap around the R in Liberty. There's also dirt or toning around the tiera and around the eagle's shoulders on the reverse. Using only the images as a guide, I see the luster as slightly subdued, and assume the coin is lightly toned. Since the color of the luster is relatively even across the obverse, I also assume the coin has not been cleaned, but a quick look in hand would be required to put my mind at ease. My 64 is based on my judgement of the photos, so I'm anxious to hear what Baley says it looks like.

mgoodm3

I voted 64. Neck marks too big for 65 IMO.

Baley

it's a pretty nice coin, would like to get some more votes and comments before I discuss...

a similar thread...

mirabela

Am I the only one thinking 58? The weak spots on her hair & the eagle aren't just flat, they're a little dull. Tough to say from the pics and I'd probably want a look at it with a loupe, but I'm thinking wear. So, with the pic alone to go on, I guess it's a really lovely 58, maybe spent half a day in someone's pocket or something. Nice clean fields & features otherwise.

papabear

I would guess Au58
this is mine

robertpr

It's either a 58 or a 65. Strike is right down the middle of the road typical for a 21 Peace. The reeding marks on the neck as well as the minor hits in the fields and on the cheek keep it at a 65 IMO but it does look cleaner than a 4 IMO. I'm also leaning towards AU58 however, for the same reasons as the others have put forth including the color near the R, around the tiara, and the high point on the eagle on the reverse. The color on the hair is also a little bit troubling but it may simply be that it wasn't struck and thus no luster was imparted to that area, and because of the particular lighting situation it appears to have rub in the photo.

Nonetheless this is a nice example and much more eye-appealing than many others which I have seen.

Cladiator

I'm in the AU club as well. Definite rub on the hair and the eagle's wing and leg. Nice coin !

Coinosaurus

My first gut guess was a 5, that's usually the one to go with

Iwog

Luster very good for a 21 Peace, but strike worse than average. The soft spot near the ear is forgivable, but the weak strike and feathers missing on the reverse are not good. Hairlines will also kill the grade on a peace dollar and I think I see a few. In a reasonable grading environment, it would get a kick up for luster and make MS63 or 64.

Since it looks like it's in an NGC holder and NGC ignores luster, I'll go MS62.

Iwog

Just to add, it's definately MS. The high points on a coin that's not fully struck always look dull like that.

prooflike

It's a 64

this is what a 62 looks like

Vet

this is one of my 21s

sliderider

Sorry, but there's twin nicks on the neck (vampire bite?) and not enough detail in the hair, IMO to warrant even an AU on this one, and I had to vote AU50 or less. There's also visible wear to the eagles feathers on the reverse.

islemangu

58 if any wear, bag if cleaned otherwise 65. maybe probably conserved at some time or another with that type of luster. Slightly below average on strike. Great fields..nice coin

USAROK

When I first saw the image I thought MS63 and voted that grade but after looking at the coin longer I have to agree with the AU58 group. The eagles head and feathers look like the typical weak strike plus a little rub as does Liberty's Hair on the obverse. Here is my MS64.

Steve27

I had to go AU58, there's wear on the eagles leg and Liberty's hair.

DHeath

Baley, thanks for the fun. As you know, the 21 is a tough coin to grade. It's very difficult to distinguish wear from areas that didn't strike up. Luster also varies greatly. I thought you might enjoy a comp coin in PCGS 64 that has IMO similar luster under toning, and a weaker strike,

PCGS MS-64

Iwog

DHeath, the coin you posted has a much better strike than Baley's coin which is why it gets to MS64. As I said earlier, areas of a coin that aren't fully struck up can look dull like they are worn. Since the luster is unbroken on most of the coin, I'm still going with MS62 and not AU.

Baley

Wow, great discussion!

I suspected that this can be a tricky coin to grade, and was correct!

For now, I will give the hint that NGC awarded the coin an MS grade, and further state that the areas of flat/gray at the hair over the ear and the feathers in the wing above the leg appear to be NOT wear, but places wear lack of metal flow caused lack of luster flow lines. What you're seeing is, IMO, "original planchet". This WILL affect the grade adversely, but will not push the grade down to the AU range. (nice call Iwog) So, the strike on this example is below average but not horrible.

Also, I am 99 and 44/100% sure this coin has not been abrasively cleaned or "wiped." Some of the observed "hairlines" are on the slab, and some are raised lines on the coin, akin to die polish lines. Luster is IMO above average, with a closer look at the top of the obv being necessary (could be haze on the slab, could be a little "dead" on the coin? (Good call, dheath)

I have to go to work, but will talk about the luster and color and marks a bit later, as well as reveal the "grade". I will also be able to take some better pics once it is out of the slab

Thanks for posting pics of your 1921s, anyone else have some pics to compare/contrast?

LeeG

1921 Peace?? Some think Morgan?? These any good?? MS what?? 63?? Thanks, Lee

Iwog

Okay, here's my pretty pretty. Kinda shows how much PCGS values strike on this particular date since I thought it had too many bagmarks to make MS64. This was also my first "dipping upgrade" since I bought the coin as an MS62 and resubmitted it minus some ugly spotting.

Baley

ok, 50 votes are in (it always surprises me that there are only 50 people who want to vote in one of these polls)

anyway, here's the NGC grade, kudos to Iwog for an accurate assessment!



This coin will now get broken out and put in the album, upgrading from an AU coin
(which has a better strike, but a touch of real wear, some hairlines, and some darker toning..

oreville

Here is my PCGS MS-64 1921 Peace dollar for comparison. Too bad I did not have a better picture.

Sn3nut

I actually like yours a lot! This date is extremely hard to grade. Here is what my PCGS MS64 looks like.

Baley

Thanks for your votes and comments and pictures everyone, it is nice to be able to compare and contrast, nice coins everyone, and thanks for your high opinion of this piece, the average grade was MS63+ but there were lots and lots of AU votes, once again, please sell me your choice AU coins! I will buy them!

Just kidding, these are tough to grade, the weak strikes sometimes look like wear, but you have to check the cheek and fields for rub and "graying", also the edges can sometimes help determine if there's wear.

hmmm. looks like some of us need to spring for a little web space to host pictures, myself included; there is only so much I can do with the 50 kb per shot that the CU provides.

Anyway, here are a couple of new pics now that the unusually stubborn slab has given up it's prize

the old and new coins on the cover of my book:


a closeup of the grade-critical zone of the obverse:


the other coin tilted to show the hairlines:


a distance shot of the reverses:


and the center of the new coin's reverse:

ashmore

I'll vote 63. Average strike, Nice luster, nice eye appeal, but several noticeable ticks that draw the eye on the neck.

Ash Harrison

DHeath

Baley, looks like the forum consensus is a MS63+. Thanks for the fun thread, and congrats on the upgrade.

LeeG

I'd like to try this again. Got locked out last time I tried. 1921 Peace, some say Morgan??? Grade help needed.

Baley

LeeG, I do not know what you're trying to ask. maybe you can elaborate?

Both Morgan and Peace dollars were coined bearing the 1921 date..

greghansen

If you want to have some fun and do some 'picking' look around until you find a VAM 3 the 'Line over L' variety, which is hardly every attributed on the slab and can be found if your willing to look at a few hundred Peace Dollars over a long period of time. I've acquired a couple of MS64's and I think one MS63 in just over 2 years. They're fun to find and a neat variety.

dragon

<<< also, do experts in this series/issue have any advice for shopping for one of these? >>>


I dunno if I'm an expert, but probably the biggest challenge in locating a nice 1921 in mint state is lustre. A vast majority of 1921's either come with a somewhat darkish and satiny unappealing type of lustre, or have been dipped to death and have washed out, lifeless and unnatural appearing surfaces. Finding a vibrant lusterous and original undipped 1921 with eye appeal can be a real challenge IMO. In fact, I would say the 1921 is one of the toughest dates in the series to locate with strong eye appeal.

dragon