1884-O morgan with ES in denticles? picture added

darktone

Can anyone tell me about an 1884-O morgan with the letters ES in the denticles below the date? Clashed die? but die clashing in the denticles would be very off center? mike

Wolf359

Have a photo?

sliderider

Photos would help. Try here.. They list a lot of known VAMs and are discovering new ones all the time. Report your coin to them and see if maybe anyone there has heard of it. Who knows, you may have a 1 of 1 VAM there.


Edit: I checked their lists and in their corrections they refer to a VAM 38 being reclassified as VAM 25 and it mentions something about an ES, but doesn't give details.

Here's the page:

VAM updates

And here's what they say about VAM 25:

25. 1884-O MPD 25 One of the best Misplaced Dates with date digits visible in the denticles. Formerly listed as VAM 38, but changed to VAM 25.


So this WAS a recognized VAM at one time but was bunched in with another due to having similar characteristics.

TWODOGS

It's probably a misplaced date. There are quite a few 1884-O MPD's, one that's pretty rare and VERY noticeable.

darktone

Thanks Guy's! I will show a picture as soon as I get the coin. I bought it on the internet so it might take a couple of day's. The seller said it was a pretty clear ES in the denticles. mike

Conder101

Probably a clash die from the ES of STATES but the dies would have to have been misaligned.

darktone

I just got the coin today and took a quick picture. I can't really tell what's in the denticles but the second one does not look like a misplaced 8 because of the flat top. Can anyone else make it out? Not as clear as the seller claimed it to be but interesting none the same. mike

darktone

Here's another one.

SDCollector

Darktone,

The mint mark may offer some clues. Several of the 84-O's have the mint mark as their primary diagnostic. Can you post a close pic of the mm?

darktone

Be right back with a picture Bill.

BigAl

die chips or flaw perhaps?

darktone

shylock

Interesting. They look raised like an MPD rather than incuse like a clash, yet look more like letters than any digit from that date.

SDCollector

Based on the mint mark, I think the reverse is C3p, from VAM 25. The mm looks tilted left, with the original mm showing as a curved line in the center. Does it look that way in person?

darktone

The mint mark has what looks like a squiggly die scratch/polish mark in the middle. I can post the whole obverse or reverse if that will help. mike

shylock

The apparent flat top of the digit under the second 8 threw me off too. But if you cut out the tops of the two 8's they do seem to match up.

seanq

Those are the tops of two 8s, not letters. Look at the top center of the 8s in the date and you can see that it looks almost flat, just like the digits inthe denticles.

That being said, I have no idea as to an attribution. Neat MPD, though.


Sean Reynolds

darktone

Shylock, that is just too cool! It clearly looks like the top of the eights now. So I guess this means it is VAM 25 ? What are these babies worth? Worth sending into ANACS to be VAMPED ? mike

SDCollector

Darktone, my guess is it's a 25. I thought it might be a 37, but the reverse on yours looks like a CP3. You can go to Ash Harrington's and look up the pic for a 37 if you want to get an idea of what a MPD looks like.

Very nice find. A 25 is an I-3 which means signficant die variety with general interest to VAM collectors. And R-3 which means scarce (hundreds of thousands). It's not a Top 100, so my guess is it may not get too much of a premium.

Excellent find. I would have ANACS verify the attribution just for the fun of it. Wait until you have 10 coins to certify and you'll get a discount.

Congrats.

darktone

Thanks Bill, I got lost at that website. Shylock sent me this link to the "hot 50" vams with the 25 being listed. LINK

SDCollector

Excellent, maybe there's more of a price premium than I realized.

SDCollector

And here's an interesting definition of MPD's by keoj a few months ago. I never quite understood what caused this.


As noted MPD means mis placed date. Reminents of date punches can often be found in many odd locations. They are usually found in resonably close proximity to the location on the final impression. I have found many located in the denticles or in the figures. Just portions of the dates are usually seen, rarely are they seen in their entirety.

It is still a question as to why they can be found so frequently on coins. I suscribe to the theory that the die makers would do a test punch (say in the denticles) to ascertain the hardness of the die so that they would be able to more accurately strike the punch to match the other depths of the numerals. That being said, I once had a coin (1873) that had the 8 and the 7 and the 3 all misplaced in denticles. Like I said, still a mystery. Hope this helps.

keoj

darktone

Thanks for all the help Bill. mike