This guy wants sellers to leave feedback first!

adamgold

Or he will give you a neutral... or so he says

http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=dmyers3d3j

ar18

I agree with him, as a buyer, your job is to pay, if you do so, you should be left pos. feedback, I think alot of sellers, don't do this to hold you hostage, if you are not happy and leave neg feedback then they will do the same to you. That is B.S. I have gotten the shaft on many small $ items and did not leave neg. feedback after contacting the seller beacause it is not worth having them lie about you to protect their reputation, it should be required that once you pay feedback must be left. Period! All this is doing is helping scammers make a few bucks at a time.

Best Regards,

Jeff

coppercoins

I don't understand what's wrong with expecting a seller to leave a feedback first. After all the first part of a transaction is the seller receiving funds in a timely manner. If they do, the buyer has done their part and deserves the feedback before the goods are shipped. Sounds like logical business to me.

Dabigkahuna

Well, I don't think he can make that threat on Ebay?

I can't argue with his reasoning but there are alway exceptions to any rule. I don't understand why some people take this so seriously?

Larry
Dabigkahuna

K6AZ

<< <i>I don't understand what's wrong with expecting a seller to leave a feedback first. After all the first part of a transaction is the seller receiving funds in a timely manner. If they do, the buyer has done their part and deserves the feedback before the goods are shipped. Sounds like logical business to me. >>



#1 Buyer pays instantly with Paypal. Great! Fast payment, so you give them positive feedback and ship. 2 days later the buyer decides it's taking too long and you get a notice from Paypal that they are attempting a chargeback.

#2 Buyer paid by check. You wait a couple weeks for the check to clear, leave positive feedback and ship. Oops, the check ends up bouncing a few days later.

#3 You put clear shipping/handling costs in your TOS and it seems reasonable at the time so they bid and win. Quick pay - you give quick feedback and ship. Buyer gets the package and sees the $3.85 postage label when you had the nerve to charge them $4.85. Buyer thinks "how dare they charge me a whole dollar for handling!" Gives you a neg.

#4 Quick pay - quick feedback. Buyer gets the item and something is wrong with it. It's broken even though you stated any flaws, it doesn't fit even though you gave all measurements. Instead of contacting you to see what can be done, they give you a neg instead.

#5 Buyer gets the item and realizes it's not worth the amount they paid for it, even though THEY decided what to bid. Typical buyer's remorse. Contacts you and demands they refund some money to make it fair. Threatens to give you a neg if you don't comply. After all, they already have their own positive safely out of the way so they don't need to worry about what YOU think.

#6 Buyer gets the item and says it doesn't work. You tell them to return it for a refund so they do. Then you realize it's not the right item. They had the same item that was no good and figured they could buy yours and send their broken one back to you.

#7 Item arrives broken, and even though insurance was purchased the buyer thinks it's too much of a hassle to cooperate with the insurance claim and just wants their money back from you NOW. You can explain the process until you're blue in the face, but they don't want to hear it. Even if the package was drop kicked off the UPS plane they see it as your fault and that's that.

#8 Your foreign buyer doesn't grasp the concept that distance equals time. Negs you for non delivery after one week.

ar18

K6AZ, I am not trying to start a war, but the seller did complete his end of the deal, and we all know Sh#t happens in the mail, lost, damaged, ect. but these are the ricks of selling on ebay. I am not saying that all people are reasonable, but most are in my experience. The problem goes deeper that damaged goods, this is allowing people to rip buyers off! Unethical sellers should not be able to scare etical buyers into not leaving neg. feedback, all this does is let another onest person screwed. I think ebay needs better dispute resolution, but may sellers WAIT!!!!! for buyers to leave feedback first, when it should be the other way around.

ar18

sorry, it's late, forgive the spelling, or lack there of

Jeff

K6AZ

Are you on eBay to buy feedback or coins? Let me tell you, after selling several thousand items that there is a high enough percentage of unreasonable buyers for me NOT to leave feedback first. This subject comes up here and elsewhere all the time. The bottom line for me is that as a seller, the buyer leaves feedback first unless I know the buyer, like someone here on the boards. If I have a buyer who I do not know, I will not leave feedback first. As a buyer, I leave feedback as soon as I get the item regardless if the seller has left it for me or not.

bestbino

The sale is not final until the buyer pays and is satisfied with his/her purchase. The seller has already disclosed everything to the buyer. Pictures, description, price, postage, refund policy, etc.
As a buyer, I have no problem leaving a positive feedback once I get my item. I am happy with my purchase price and the product was as described by the Seller. If there is a problem, then I simply contact the seller. It almost all cases, things can be easily be worked out. If I had to return it, fine, he still gets a positive feedback for taking the item back.
Negative Feedback is far more damaging to a Seller than to a buyer. A buyer could have 70% rating and buy my product pay instantly with Paypal, and I have no Problem. But, would I even consider buying from a Seller with a 70% Feedback Rating? Not!

ar18

K6AZ, I understand what you are saying to some point, but not enough. Even ebay states, once you pay, leave feedback. Like I said this is a hostage situation. Lets say I buy a 16d merc "authentic" and recieve the coin and see it is an added d, okay so I leave feedback sayin, "not real, fake d, buyer beware" fine, done right. Okay, so the buyer leaves neg. on me saying slow payer, no contact, do not do business with. Who was wrong??? The seller, the buyer???? Now considering people like to talk so much on these boards, If yuo came on and said, "loser" prior to me being a member, would I get the bids maybe I should have, assuming I came on this board to post my coins??? Once again who was really wrong?? A way to hold hostage is what is is.

K6AZ

Well, I wouldn't have the type of situation because I would not buy a coin like that raw. So we get down to the real nitty gritty here, which is really what this issue is all about. You want a positive from a seller so you can leave a negative without getting one back. I've actually have seen sellers neg'ed for having the nerve to charge $5 s/h when there was "only" $3.85 postage. I also have seen sellers neg'ed seven days after the auction by impatient buyer who paid with PayPal right after the auction.

Again I'll say, you seem to be more concerned with feedback than you are getting what you bought in a timely manner accurately described.

ar18

you're right feedback is important, but not every coin that is raw needs to be slabbed, when someone give me their WORD that a coin is authentic, I take if for what it is worth!!!!! Honesty may be a long lost tradition to you, but it is what I go on. A mans word is a mans word. so when they won't stand behind their word, i.e. leave feedback prior to shipping, what are we doing here???? So say what you want about feedback, I alreadyt said it is IMPORTANT in my situation, so if that is the best you can do, so be it! I am not trying to trick, hold hostage, lie or do anything else to anyone. I also stand behind my word 100%, I guess some don't. That is a true shame.

SLABBING IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO BUY COINS!!! I AHVE SEEN PLENTY OF FAKE SLABS!!!!!

ar18

oh yeah, I never brought up postage, you did, that is not a big deal to me, unless you charge me 25.00 bucks. And you may not do it, but if the coin is crap, the buyer deserves pos feedback and the seller deserves neg. PERIOD KNOW WHAT YOU SELL!!!! You're supposed to be an expert!!

airplanenut

<< <i>but not every coin that is raw needs to be slabbed >>

Every key date coin that is sold on ebay sure as hell does. Frankly, if anyone really is stupid enough to buy a raw key date, well, they deserve to get screwed.



<< <i>when someone give me their WORD that a coin is authentic, I take if for what it is worth!!!!! Honesty may be a long lost tradition to you, but it is what I go on. A mans word is a mans word >>

So Joe Schmo from some place you've never heard of is honest because he is breathing? eBay is not a tight-nit community where everyone knows everyone else. If you believe everything someone on eBay says, you're ridiculously ignorant. I hear coinmovers has some stuff worth $300,000 for about $30. Go get it before the auction ends!



<< <i>so when they won't stand behind their word, i.e. leave feedback prior to shipping, what are we doing here??? >>

Where is someone's word that they will leave feedback? eBay doesn't require feedback to be left--they "suggest" it.



<< <i>So say what you want about feedback, I alreadyt said it is IMPORTANT in my situation, so if that is the best you can do, so be it! >>

Ok. So leave positive feedback saying that the seller shipped the fake coin quickly. At least you got your fake coin and positive for paying quickly!



<< <i>And you may not do it, but if the coin is crap, the buyer deserves pos feedback and the seller deserves neg. >>

The buyer deserves nothing if the coin is crap, unless it is totally misdescribed. Caveat emptor. Maybe the buyer deserves a neg as a wakeup that life's not fair and eBay's not safe if you don't have a clue.

ar18

okay airplane nut, first off you are missing out on some very nice non-graded coins good luck in buying you already high priced coins, " wow, i got a 2800 coin for 2700, yipee, second off deserving to gets screwed speaks greatly for collectors like you, oh yeah, do you ramember when coins were generally not slabbed, say 20 years ago? What the argument comes down to is when a buyers pays, should he get feedback, none of this other stuff, this si just the progression of the debate, answer the origunal question! Okay fine, a suggestion to leave feedback is not enough for you, you must be forced to do it when ebay mandates it?? Can't you stand behind your product? Your whole attitude as to life is not fair is correct, I never said it was, but trusting a person to represent a product as it is may be some thing you have to learn or you are going to have a hell of a time in life!!! Trust no one, get your license, degree, social card and everything else slabbed by pcgs, am sure they will be doing that soon, or else when you turn 21 no beer for you. What are you 13 all day long???

lordmarcovan

I used to agree with this guy, until I discovered many other facets to the issue, most of which were brought up by K6AZ. Now I see both sides of it. Usually I will leave feedback first, as a seller, but not always.

Now, totally off the main topic, why is this guy's eBay page scrunched all down one side, three words wide, like that?

And here's a link, since nobody provided one.

This whole debate will never be solved unless and until eBay somehow programs things so that one party (buyer or seller) has to leave feedback for the other party before he can receive any in return. And I don't see that happening. But you never know, with eBay. They love to suddenly change stuff around.

JR

The deal isn’t over until the buyer receives the goods in the condition represented by the seller. Once the buyer indicates to the seller (by email or posting feedback), that the goods were received and were satisfactory, then the seller should leave feedback on the transaction.

Personally, as a buyer (which I am in most of my cases), I’ll post feedback for the seller upon receipt of what was advertised and paid for. The seller can then leave me feedback or not. As a buyer, I’m done then. I got what I paid for and have indicated the same.

As a seller (very infrequent), I wait to hear that the buyer received the merchandise and is satisfied. Upon hearing that (via email or by posting feedback), I will post feedback then for the buyer.

At first glance, I realize that it may appear that I will not leave feedback until the other party does. That is not correct. As a seller, I just need to know that they received the merchandise and are satisfied. I don’t require that they leave feedback first – because I will. As a buyer, I usually leave feedback upon receipt of the goods advertised and received. The rest I don’t care about.

You need to base your feedback policies on whatever you are comfortable with. I do not condone “feedback hostage taking”. If you are the seller, then you should leave feedback immediately upon learning that the buyer received the goods and is satisfied with the transaction. As a buyer, I do leave feedback for the seller upon receipt of the goods I as represented in the auction – regardless if they have previously left me feedback..

The system could be different, but it is what it is. Flawed, to be sure, but I eventually established policies which matched my comfort zone and experience.

Just my opinion, and not anyone else’s policy that I know of. Bottom Line: Until the buyer gets the goods advertised, then the deal is not finished. When BOTH parties are satisfied, then the deal is done. Feedback should follow, but I wouldn’t wait on that from another. I’ll leave feedback based on my own personal criteria. No feedback hostage taking here. Somebody has to go first, and reason should rule the day. Sometimes it doesn’t, but having a clear policy (or at least a guideline), helps achieve your comfort level – and that’s what this feedback issue is all about

lordmarcovan

JR- I think your keyboard is possessed!

airplanenut

<< <i> first off you are missing out on some very nice non-graded coins good luck in buying you already high priced coins >>

I buy raw coins all the time. I don't buy KEY DATES on EBAY when they are RAW because I'm not an IDIOT.



<< <i>do you ramember when coins were generally not slabbed, say 20 years ago? >>

I wasn't alive 20 years ago. But, they tell me the internet is something of my generation. Do you remember when people were selling fake, raw KEY DATES on eBay 20 years ago?



<< <i>but trusting a person to represent a product as it is may be some thing you have to learn or you are going to have a hell of a time in life!!! >>

I trust many people, especially many board members. But I don't trust someone just because they have a hotmail account and an eBay ID. That would be ridiculous.



<< <i>Trust no one, get your license, degree, social card and everything else slabbed by pcgs, am sure they will be doing that soon, or else when you turn 21 no beer for you. What are you 13 all day long??? >>

No, I'm 17. And frankly, start a post, start a poll. Ask the board who here commands/deserves more respect? I'm plainly laying out ideas, you're putting words in my mouth. I've earned the trust of many people here through good transactions, face-to-face conversations, and overall honesty; I don't know your first name.

When I sell something, sure I have faith in my product. However, buyers can hold a seller feedback hostage, too. Ever have a buyer say they want a partial refund or they leave a negative? How about a buyer who is out to slander you and once you leave a positive, they leave a negative? What about a buyer who doesn't want to take advantage of your return policy because they didn't read the description to see what they are buying, so they decide to leave a negative instead of work out the problem? They have NOT fairly completed the transaction, and the seller has no recourse. Tell me you got the item and are happy, and I'll leave you feedback. Tell me you paid, and I'll promise you a positive as long as you are fair and curteous through the remainder of the transaction.

Go look at K6AZ's feedback. Why does he have negatives? Because he was kind enough to leave some positives right when the buyer paid, so the buyer immediately slammed him with a negative to complete an agenda. Care to argue some more? I'm off to bed, I'll pick up tomorrow.

lordmarcovan

...or maybe just the apostrophe.

JrGMan2004

As a seller, my policy is to wait for the buyer to acknowledge receipt and that there are no problems, either by email or positive feedback. Once the transaction is complete and final, I will then leave my feedback, simple as that. Why should a seller leave feedback as soon as payment is made? Is that the end of the transaction? What if there is a problem with the coin and the person wants to send it back? Or what it the buyer tries to screw over the seller?

As for slabbed key dates, I wholeheartedly agree with airplanenut on this. Even the Anti-Plastic people will tell you that certification is a good thing for authentication of rare and valuable coins. Where's dorkkarl when you need him? He's probally the biggest Anti-Slab guy on the forums, but he'll tell you, he still supports it for authentication of rarieties. And also airplanenut buys and sells many many more raw coins that he does slabbed. He's preached to me more than once the same message you're trying to preach to the choir...

ksteelheader

<< <i>Are you on eBay to buy feedback or coins? Let me tell you, after selling several thousand items that there is a high enough percentage of unreasonable buyers for me NOT to leave feedback first. This subject comes up here and elsewhere all the time. The bottom line for me is that as a seller, the buyer leaves feedback first unless I know the buyer, like someone here on the boards. If I have a buyer who I do not know, I will not leave feedback first. As a buyer, I leave feedback as soon as I get the item regardless if the seller has left it for me or not. >>



ar18, open your profile. Or, are you hiding for some reason???

291fifth

It's his choice.

joeyuk

When I sell I do leave feedback when I get the payment. I see this may be a mistake. The buyer could make unreasonable demands such as you paying return postage for a unwanted item.

ms70

That's nothing more than a courteous advance warning that he will hold you "feedback hostage"......... OVER FEEDBACK!

If he pulled that crap with me I'd nuke him with a negative. Added to blocked bidders list.

Steve27

IMO, every auction for which the seller has not been provided feedback, should immediately and automatically show up as a neutral and only change if the buyer then leaves actual feedback. That way you would get a much better picture as to how the seller is operating. I'm tired of these "power sellers," who after racking-up a few hundred sales, don't leave feedback unless the buyer does first and then makes a special request to the seller.

ziggy29

<< <i>Or he will give you a neutral... or so he says >>

Thanks for giving me another bidder to block.

airplanenut

<< <i>IMO, every auction for which the seller has not been provided feedback, should immediately and automatically show up as a neutral and only change if the buyer then leaves actual feedback. >>

It would be easier if no feedback showed up until both parties left it... then they could best work out their differences and problems.

Jeremy

MICHAELDIXON

I try to leave feedback when the buyer pays, as he has upheld his end of the sale. Personally, I can't see any reason for holding the feedback hostage. If you represent the item correctly and ship promptly then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. True, some buyers are unreasonable, but they are few. I have a neg where the guy states: "Coin was described as Gem BU, but the coin was baggy and spotted." It was a 100% white PCGS MS65 that was nice!! This negative didn't discourage me from leaving positive feedback first.

orie

Etiquette says that when the seller receives funds he/she should leave feedback. It's an in turn thing.

Etiquette is not a rule, it's the right thing. When a seller doesn't leave feedback it's a control issue. Forget it and go on.

MacCoin

don't do it

K6AZ

<< <i>I try to leave feedback when the buyer pays, as he has upheld his end of the sale. Personally, I can't see any reason for holding the feedback hostage. If you represent the item correctly and ship promptly then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. True, some buyers are unreasonable, but they are few. I have a neg where the guy states: "Coin was described as Gem BU, but the coin was baggy and spotted." It was a 100% white PCGS MS65 that was nice!! This negative didn't discourage me from leaving positive feedback first. >>



The problem is these type of buyers tend to show up in bunches. Get four or five of these in a short period of time, watch bidders start retracting bids and you will come away with a different perspective. Granted, coin buyers tend to be a little better, but in other items such as computer parts it is a real problem. I have several negatives on my computer selling account from buyers who had no business opening up a computer and bent CPU pins trying to insert them in the ZIF sockets the wrong way. Naturally I wouldn't take them back.

Catch22

I buy and sell. I leave feedback when I get around to it. Never longer than a couple of weeks after the transaction is complete. If there are going to be problems, I figure I'll know by then.

tgilliams

once the buyer pays for the coin the SELLER should give feedback. if i don't receive feedback when i pay the seller will not receive any feedback even if the coin is worth 10x what i paid. II ALWAYS give feedback right away to buyers upon pymt. I have faith in the coins i sell, too bad you don't.

mtnvalley

<< <i>Or he will give you a neutral... or so he says >>



Hello. I'm the guy referred to at the start of this thread. Thanks to Adam for starting this discussion, and for referring me here (just got an account so that I might respond). More "thank you"s in a moment, but first...I should probably clarify what I said (for those who didn't actually read it), with a direct quote from the subject "About Me" eBay page:



<< <i>I'm thinking about starting to leave "Neutrals" for those sellers who withhold earned positive feedback until after they've received feedback from me. For the system to have any meaning, each participant should be judged on their actual perfomance, not on "quid pro quo" games. >>



Personally, I can see a significant distinction between what I said, and the sentiment implied at the top of this post. Others may not.

Nonetheless, it's good to see some discourse on this topic, and that there are a number of different viewpoints. Upon reading the above quote, Adam wrote me and stated that "Buyers usualy(99.9%) leave feedback first...", and I questioned whether this statement was based on some hard data or poll of which I'm not aware. Considering that there are millions of eBay users, and no set policy on the matter, I'd think that the only thing one might assume that 99.9% of them have in common is that they use a computer.

Apparently some others agree with me; along with those who posted such here, I've received a few concurring e-mails subsequent to the issue being brought up here (along with one politely expressing disagreement). Although it's apparent there are differing opinions on the subject, some of the dissenting posts upthread were both constructive and instructive, in citing specific examples of situations where a seller might have legitimate reasons for not leaving feedback first. My thanks to them for sharing their insights.

And while I'm handing out thanks, I'd like to extend a special "thank you" to the two posters who IMHO rushed to judgment about me, and blocked me from bidding on their auctions. It may seem odd to some (my thanking them for this), but this action saves me from inadvertently doing business with someone who clearly doesn't want my money simply and solely because I have an opinion which differs from theirs. I was just saved from such on auction 3923676702 a few moments ago.

Russ

mtnvalley,

Welcome aboard!

Russ, NCNE

ksteelheader

mtnvalley, Your thoughts are well taken and well thought out. Remember a saying of mine...."Life is merely a series of choices" Everyone makes them and has to live with them. I personally have no blocked bidders. I did at one time block a person here from sending PM's, but have undone that also!

By the way, Welcome, and enjoy the sometimes rocky ride!...Ken

ziggy29

The problem with this buyer's opinion, aside from the "feedback hostage" scenario, is this:

Feedback is supposed to represent your opinion about the experience of the *transaction*.

The transaction is NOT finished when the buyer pays the seller.

As far as I'm concerned, the transaction is finished when the buyer informs the seller that they received the item and that they are satisfied. As a seller, until I know my customer is satisfied, the transaction is still pending.

When I sell, I don't withhold feedback until the buyer gives mine. I do, however, ask that they let me know that everything is OK when they receive it. Once they let me know it's cool -- even before feedback is sent by anyone -- I will generally give the positive feedback before the buyer posts theirs. Sometimes (usually, actually), their acknowledgment is in the form of the positive feedback. But I've never made it a *policy* to withhold mine until the buyer posts theirs. Usually, I do ask that they at least inform me they received the item and are happy with it. To me, that completes the transaction and I will give their feedback. Maybe I've been lucky to not sell to a scoundrel in that sense, but so far, it's worked for me as the vast majority of buyers are basically honest, decent people.

I think there's a middle ground between giving feedback willy-nilly as soon as you receive payment and demanding that the buyer leave theirs first.

Russ

<< <i>I did at one time block a person here from sending PM's >>



That explains why you never respond to my PMs.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut

Welcome, mtnvalley! Glad you came by to give your thoughts--I hope you stick around.

I think people blocked you because the tone of your idea comes off in a very threatening manner--most sellers don't mean the buyer any harm, but are simply not wanting to take a risk. Your about me page makes it seem as if you are ready to lay a neutral in no-time flat.

Regardless, I hope you stick around--get involved!

Jeremy

ar18

ksteelheader
I have no idea how to open my profile, If you tell me I will do so. I have nothing to hide and have been honest 100% of the time and will continue to be. My opinion represents my opinion and I am not tryying to start wars, but when someone calls me an idiot, that statement wants me to move to other bords.h

K6AZ

<< <i>ksteelheader
I have no idea how to open my profile, If you tell me I will do so. I have nothing to hide and have been honest 100% of the time and will continue to be. My opinion represents my opinion and I am not tryying to start wars, but when someone calls me an idiot, that statement wants me to move to other bords.h >>



Excuse me, but where did Ken call you an idiot? I have just double checked every post in this thread, and in none of them did he call you an idiot.

08HALA20

<< <i>Are you on eBay to buy feedback or coins? Let me tell you, after selling several thousand items that there is a high enough percentage of unreasonable buyers for me NOT to leave feedback first. This subject comes up here and elsewhere all the time. The bottom line for me is that as a seller, the buyer leaves feedback first unless I know the buyer, like someone here on the boards. If I have a buyer who I do not know, I will not leave feedback first. As a buyer, I leave feedback as soon as I get the item regardless if the seller has left it for me or not. >>



This is correct in my opinion and I may begin to implement this policy also.

I plan to send winner bidder an email thanking them for payment and letting them know item was shipped and THAT FEEDBACK WILL BE LEFT WHEN THEY RECEIVE ITEM AND LET ME KNOW THEY ARE SATISFIED. Now transaction is complete when both parties are happy.

Rookie Joe

Russ

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut

<< <i> >>

Those guys look so happy! Tennis rules!

Bustman

Mtnvalley,
No offense, but I would likely block you as well based on your about me page. It just looks like you out to stir the pot. I have 100% positive feedback in over 150 sales and would not want to take any chances with someone who may be set on trying to make an example out of a seller who waits to leave feedback.
There are too many ways a buyer can hold the seller hostage once the seller leaves a positive feedback. The transaction is not over just because it the buyer has paid. What if the seller decides he paid too much for the item and wants a partial refund or he will leave a negative feedback ( yes, that has actually happened to me). While I do not wait for a positive feedback, like many others I will wait until I hear from the buyer that he is satisfied, or until they leave a positive feedback.

Russ

<< <i>Those guys look so happy! Tennis rules! >>



That's ping pong, goober.

On second thought, maybe it's racquet ball.

Or maybe squash.

Russ, NCNE

K6AZ

Bustman, even that doesn't protect you. I had two cases where the buyers emailed me saying "got the coin please leave feedback", and when I left them a positive they immediately slammed me with negatives.

ksteelheader

<< <i>That explains why you never respond to my PMs. >>

Wasn't you! The guy is now unblocked!

wayneherndon

As a seller, I always leave feedback first even though it has exposed me to some bogus negatives. As a buyer I only post feedback after the seller entirely because I believe the seller should post first.

WH

airplanenut

<< <i>

<< <i>Those guys look so happy! Tennis rules! >>



That's ping pong, goober.

On second thought, maybe it's racquet ball.

Or maybe squash.

Russ, NCNE >>

That ain't ping-pong! It's tennis Raquetball and squash aren't played with a net, smart one