Fourth of July Quiz

homerunhall · July 4, 2004 6:11AM

Here's a question we used to ponder at coin shows...late at night, if you know what I mean...

In 1895, the Philadelphia Mint struck 880 proof Morgan dollars. Today this issue is only available in proof and it has been one of the Morgan dollar "key dates" for decades. But the Mint also struck 12,000 non-proofs, though none have even been seen. Speculation is that they were melted with the 270 million other silver dollars that were melted under the Pittman act of 1918.

The question is...

Someone comes up to you at a coin show with a roll of 20 frosty uncirculated 1895-P Morgan dollars...nice quality...unquestionably genuine...and unquestionably circulation strikes.

What would you pay for the roll?????

JrGMan2004 · July 4, 2004 6:13AM

Spot value

cosmicdebris · July 4, 2004 6:15AM

My Money or your money? I don't think I could come up with the cash myself.

JrGMan2004 · July 4, 2004 6:17AM

Seriously though... I would offer to take it on commission, and sell the coins at auction...

Louis · July 4, 2004 6:20AM

500K, which is probably the most cash I could come up with on short notice.

1234567890 · July 4, 2004 6:20AM

Why? Did someone offer you some?

BAJJERFAN · July 4, 2004 6:21AM

If the guy didn't know what he had then maybe $100K. If he did know then $4-5 million maybe. Then I would walk them over to the PCGS table, get them slabbed, sell enough to break even and keep the rest!

SethChandler · July 4, 2004 6:24AM

Well, first, I's ask a few questions before making an offer to see where the person bought them or to get a feel if there is more......obviously, THAT would determine my offer. And, the type of individual that is selling them.

Seth

Gonfunko · July 4, 2004 6:24AM

However much money I have on hand and can get dad to advance.....maybe $200

But, if I had Bill Gates' bank account #, I'd just ask him what he wants!

Catch22 · July 4, 2004 6:25AM

I wouldn't pay anything for them without knowing how many more were out there. I'd have a few questions to ask before buying them. I'd hate to try and put a value on a coin without knowing whether or not there were going to be several thousand more available at any given time.

291fifth · July 4, 2004 6:27AM

I wouldn't buy it. The appearance of one roll would indicate that at least one full bag survived. I would insist on complete disclosure.

ldhair · July 4, 2004 6:35AM

Almost anything.

I would probably send one in and sell it.
Send the next one in and sell it.
I would keep this up saving the best coins for last.

dollardude · July 4, 2004 6:36AM

Happy Fourth of July, David!

Well, as a collector who has the entire Morgan business strike set, I'd be interested. I'd ponder a couple of questions first, like "What would they be worth, knowing that these are the only known examples?" and "Are there any more?"

I'd probably offer in the range of $100K each x 20 = $2M, so I could maybe resell them at $200K each.

ms70 · July 4, 2004 6:39AM

Since I probably couldn't afford the worst one of the bunch, just for fun I might start yelling, "Hey this guy has a roll of Unc 1895 Morgans!!"

Then stand back & watch what happens!

jhar · July 4, 2004 6:43AM

fcloud · July 4, 2004 6:55AM

Great question!

So far none have been found, and I would doubt their authentication. Especially with the fact the quality of the equipment today for producing coins today. The $20 Omega Piece comes to mind (if the forger didn’t place the Omega symbol in the claw the coins would be trading as original today). There are no known copies in which to compare so if these coins were accepted as original could be a very costly mistake. Although, I am sure collectors would gobble them up even if they were forgeries.

Russ · July 4, 2004 7:06AM

<< The appearance of one roll would indicate that at least one full bag survived. >>

Not necessarily. The coins were melted by weight without regard for what was actually dumped in the hopper. A mint employee could have rescued some and snuck them out.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 4, 2004 7:08AM

DP

Russ, NCNE

clw54 · July 4, 2004 7:10AM

I doubt there are any, but I didn't think the fifth 1913 nickel would show up either.

topstuf · July 4, 2004 7:11AM

Can anyone say "1903-O?"

nwcs · July 4, 2004 7:23AM

I'd take them on commission.

mgoodm3 · July 4, 2004 7:25AM

I would pay as little as I could get away with.

Boom · July 4, 2004 7:36AM

I don't know if I would. What if I bust out a wad, finalize the deal and he happens to say, "Oh, by the way My great grandfather hoarded several more rolls-want them too?"

BAJJERFAN · July 4, 2004 7:36AM

So after these discussions what did you all decide that you would do?

Suppose the Mint was to buy enough Morgans to remelt and resurrect the old dies and presses and restrike the 12,000 1895 Morgans. How many here would buy one and to you David "How would PCGS slab them?"

MrEureka · July 4, 2004 7:52AM

What would you pay for the roll?????

David, I've never known you to ask a hypothetical question! Hmmm.....

Dahlonega · July 4, 2004 8:08AM

200K

MadMarty · July 4, 2004 8:18AM

How would you know what a business strike 1895 Morgan looks like? since there are no known examples, what is to say some enterprising young Asian company manufactured the dies, mixed the metal and struck the coins on old US mint presses that were bought at a GSA auction. Since they are the correct weight and they look right there is nothing to compair them too. So greedy dealers/collectors you are pony up $100,000 per coin or $2,000,000 for the roll (cash only) and the Asian company is laughing all the way to the bank!

MrEureka · July 4, 2004 8:22AM

How would you know what a business strike 1895 Morgan looks like?

Maybe because it wouldn't look like the proofs???

MadMarty · July 4, 2004 8:24AM

<< How would you know what a business strike 1895 Morgan looks like?

Maybe because it wouldn't look like the proofs???
>>

Take a 93-S, there are die markers to tell a real one. Well being these would be the 1st 1895 MS Morgans ever seen there are no markers. How would you know it's real?

Gonfunko · July 4, 2004 8:31AM

Look at the question again: <<Someone comes up to you at a coin show with a roll of 20 frosty uncirculated 1895-P Morgan dollars...nice quality...unquestionably genuine...and unquestionably circulation strikes.>> It's a hypothetical question, so we're assuming they're genuine Uncirulated 1895 Morgan Dollars. Although it's not stated, I think we're also supposed to assume that the one roll is all that exist.

BAJJERFAN · July 4, 2004 8:31AM

You would know they are real because there would be a small R stamped on em!!

MrEureka · July 4, 2004 8:31AM

How would you know it's real?

With certainty? Impossible. But after seeing the coin, I'd certainly be willing to buy it for serious money or condemn it.

coinguy89 · July 4, 2004 8:32AM

I wouldn't buy it, im not interested in a whole roll of the same thing, i'd rather have none of the same, all different, besides I wouldn't even have enough money for that kinda thing.

MrEureka · July 4, 2004 8:38AM

I wouldn't buy it, im not interested in a whole roll of the same thing, i'd rather have none of the same, all different, besides I wouldn't even have enough money for that kinda thing.

Scott - Some friendly advice: NEVER, NEVER say that again. Repeat after me: "Wow, that's really cool! I have a really rich friend that collects rolls of Morgan dollars and he doesn't have a roll of those! I'll bet he would pay a fortune for them! Mind if I give him a call?" Got that? BTW, MrEureka collects Morgan dollar rolls, as of right now.

coinguy89 · July 4, 2004 8:40AM

<< I wouldn't buy it, im not interested in a whole roll of the same thing, i'd rather have none of the same, all different, besides I wouldn't even have enough money for that kinda thing.

Scott - Some friendly advice: NEVER, NEVER say that again. Repeat after me: "Wow, that's really cool! I have a really rich friend that collects rolls of Morgan dollars and he doesn't have a roll of those! I'll bet he would pay a fortune for them! Mind if I give him a call?" Got that? BTW, MrEureka collects Morgan dollar rolls, as of right now.

>>

Im so confused.

It's not like he's giving them away, besides, that's just how I feel, atleast as of now.

jeffnpcb · July 4, 2004 8:55AM

Not a dime till they were certified as genuine!

MadMarty · July 4, 2004 8:59AM

OK Andy,

Here is the scoop, some of your buddies at the Franklin Mint were doing a bit of moonlighting. Given the technology today they designed and made a set of 1895 Morgan dies. Mixed up the 90% alloy and made a few hundred coins. Sat on them for a while and now they are offering you a roll of 1895 business strike morgans for $50,000 each. Pony up $1,000,000 cash, small unmarked bills please and they are yours. Do you buy them?

merz2 · July 4, 2004 9:20AM

There is a known example at the Smithsonian.If I'm not mistaken.

LincolnCentMan · July 4, 2004 9:34AM

I'd tell him that I couldnt afford them and would offer advice on how to liquidate. Of coarse, if he would sell one to me at a discounted rate... that would be nice.

David

MrEureka · July 4, 2004 9:35AM

Here is the scoop, some of your buddies at the Franklin Mint were doing a bit of moonlighting. Given the technology today they designed and made a set of 1895 Morgan dies. Mixed up the 90% alloy and made a few hundred coins. Sat on them for a while and now they are offering you a roll of 1895 business strike morgans for $50,000 each. Pony up $1,000,000 cash, small unmarked bills please and they are yours. Do you buy them?

Not a fair question. My buddies wouldn't do that.

clw54 · July 4, 2004 9:36AM

<< There is a known example at the Smithsonian.If I'm not mistaken. >>

There is?

Steve · July 4, 2004 10:42AM

<< There is a known example at the Smithsonian.If I'm not mistaken. >>

Don,
I have never heard that mentioned in any numismatic report. Steve

oreville · July 4, 2004 11:16AM

Hmmm, I would call TDN and ask him to finance my purchase of these silver dollars as I am too busy financing my kids College education and he has some time yet to go on that!

Then Laura of Legend Numismatics would have all of these 1895 silver dollars to get slabbed by PCGS.

Only problem is she would not be allowed to send them into PCGS.

Then PCGS would then realize that bygones will be bygones and welcome Laura back with a big hug!

roadrunner · July 4, 2004 12:08PM

I would suspect the secret service would get involved in any case.
The whole thing would wreak of "fake" even if they were genuine.
You might not get them back for some period of time and who knows how many they would "lose" or ruin in the process. Were the 12,000 coins ever monetized? Could they be confiscated?

What if you kept the best one and then melted the rest into a silver bar in front of witnessess? You have the only one and it would be worth a few million.

If these were the only 20 pieces they'd be worth $100,000 each imo.
The 400-600 proofs in existence would still satisfy the bulk of collectors needing one for a set. No one has to own a MS piece.
There are a number of key date coins where 20 or so specimens exist...few of them bring $100,000....esp. with hundreds of proofs waiting to back them up. I would not offer more than $250,000 for the roll as that would be the price of what proofs would bring. If you offered a million you'd never get the roll. Actually, if you offer over $5,000 for the roll you would likely not get it if the source was unknowledgeable. Once they hear dreams of riches, they'll take their coins elsewhere. This is one case where being fair, guarantees you won't get the coins.....at least not until multiple dealers have all taken their cut.

Would PCGS redo the registry set and require a non-proof now? That would be the biggest immediate driver. Once again, PCGS holds the cards!

roadrunner

Placid · July 4, 2004 12:09PM

So now you know there are at least 20 of them. 20 known would make them a R6 of course there is no way to know if this person found a hoard of them.
I would guess 30k per coin would not be unreasonable.

roadrunner · July 4, 2004 12:15PM

A roll of 89-cc dollars is worth $250,000 or more. A roll of 1895's would be far more valuable imo even with the existence of proofs.

roadrunner

Conder101 · July 4, 2004 12:15PM

<< There is a known example at the Smithsonian.If I'm not mistaken. >>

You are mistaken.

marcmoish · July 4, 2004 11:38PM

Oreville

Shamika · July 5, 2004 1:00AM

<< Someone comes up to you at a coin show with a roll of 20 frosty uncirculated 1895-P Morgan dollars...nice quality...unquestionably genuine...and unquestionably circulation strikes.

What would you pay for the roll????? >>

Let's assume the coins are indeed genuine and that it is the only roll that survived. You still have the problem of getting the seller to accept your offer. If you low-ball him, he may walk. If you offered him the moon ($1 million+), you will have tipped him off to the true value of the coins and he may then want to shop the roll.

A precarious position indeed.

BAJJERFAN · July 5, 2004 1:06AM

I guess first off you would have to believe that the 12,000 really were struck. What is there for documentation to prove that they were. QDB's new Redbook certainly doesn't say that they were.

homerunhall · July 5, 2004 2:13AM

The coins were probably struck, as it is documented that 5 obverse dies and 4 reverse dies were prepared.

The worry of course is that the 20 that show up would only be the tip of the iceberg ala the 1903-Os in November, 1962. However, there were 20 Uncirculated 1893-S dollars ( perhaps half of those in existence today) that were in a 1000 coin bag of 1894-S dollars that broke in Great Falls, Montana in 1952...so anything's possible.

The Smithsonian does not have an example and no example has ever been seen or reported.

Fourth of July Quiz

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