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1990 NO "S" LINCOLN CENT DISCUSSION

I am starting this topic on this forum as a result of a similar thread on the coin forum by moosesr (Charlie). It seems like a number of members either own this coin in the set registry or would like to own it. In my opinion, it is right up there with the 1909VDB Matte Proof as far as rarity. I believe there are no more than 200 to 300 in existance. What makes this particular coin such a great coin to collect and to own is that it LOOKS so great in its normal condition of DCAM frosting. And any collector who knows that the error is that the coin lacks the "S" mintmark can see it with the naked eye! It is the modern version of the famous 1922 Lincoln no "D", but oh so much better. I know that many of you look at the profit potential when evaluating coins. Obviously, the higher the grade, the better potential for higher value. In this coin, that is also true, but what is also true is that many Lincoln cent collectors would like to have this coin in their collection AT ANY GRADE but just can't get it because there just are not that many available. I bought mine back in 1993 for about $1,500. Now, I see a couple of ads in Coin World where the coin is offered at about $5,000. This coin is a perfect example of a "keeper" IMHO. The price will always be going up, like the 1909SVDB because as more people recognize its rarity and its beauty as a major Lincoln cent error more people will want it for their collection. PCGS has slabbed 40 so far and I believe NGC has slabbed 2 in 14 years. I have a feeling that a number of forum members own one or more. If you do, how do you feel about this coin? If you don't currently own it, would you want it for your collection if you could afford it? Comments? Thanks,

Steve


image

Comments

  • As I stated in a previous thread I currently own two. My first purchase was in 66 DCAM and then I upgraded by purchasing one in 68 DCAM. The 66 DCAM is going up for auction in the Heritage Signature sale at the beginning of May.

    To answer your question about how I feel about this coin: I love it. Not only can the error be viewed with the "naked eye" but when discussing this error with people they become very interested in the mint process. In my opinion it is a very exciting coin to own.
  • With only 200-300 in existence, that would definitely make it a true rarity. Just seeing what these coins have been going for lately (the last 3 69DC have sold for over $14,000 in auction and about $7500 in 68DC), I think that gives a pretty good indication that collectors already have a good sense to its intrinsic value. In any grade, I'm sure this is a keeper. Does Coin World still have the ads for them? I'll have to check out the 66 coming up in the Heritage.
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,509
    Steve
    I hate to disagree with you,but according to the Redbook there were 3,555 of them made.While that doesn't mean they aren't rare,it means they will be around and collected by any that find them.I believe there are many yet to be uncovered.Some people ordered the Proof sets and just put them away,without looking.
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭

    Hey Guys,

    In my opinion there are less than 100 sets.I have been buying and selling them since they were first discovered in 1990.Most should grade PR 69 but lately PCGS calls everything PR 68.Liability I guess as they are modern proofs.
    I don't care what the mint says because as they bring $14,000 a pop at auction more would become available.They are just not anywhere to be found. 3,655 my a$$ ! They a$$ume that there could possibly be that many.I stand by my guesstimate of 100 pieces.

    Steve - Comparing a 1922 No D to a 1990 No S is a SIN.Can you imagine what a full red 1922 No D in ms 68 red will bring at auction?
    A 1990 No s is a modern rarety and a 1922 No D is a classic rarety.

    Stewart
  • I'll agree with Stewart on this. From what I understand, aproximately 3,700 was an average number produced from one proof die but this is just an estimate. With the 145 sets with the "No S" destroyed by the mint, we are left with 3,555. But again, even the mint agreed this was an arbitrary number and only an estimate as to the potential maximum that could have been produced. In Oct., 1990, the number of confirmed sets with the "No S" had been less than 50. 13 1/2 years later, we are still around the same number confirmed, either by what complete "No S" sets have recently surfaced and what have actually been graded by PCGS and NGC (I don't know if any other companies have graded any). Even if 500 ever surface, the demand for the coin will outweigh the supply by quite a bit.
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Don, here is the story on the "official" 3,555 count in the Red Book and in other publications. When the US Mint acknowledged that some of these coins were sent out, they said two things. #1 was that they had recovered 145 sets and they were distroyed before they left the mint. #2 was that the average proof die life for making the 1990S proof sets was about 3,700. That is all that was said. The media picked up on the 3,555 as the difference between the two numbers. Nobody really knows how many coins were actually struck from this die before it was removed. As far as the story that there are lots of proof sets stored somewhere with these coins waiting to be discovered, well, it's been 14 years already. Sure, there are some still out there, and there are also some people who foolishly allow these rare coins to continue to sit in the US Mint packaging. Over time they will deteriate because the plastic is not as air tight as a PCGS or NGC slab. So, if there are 42 of these coins in slabs right now, and I doubt anyone has them in third tier slabs and ANACS did not report any in their fall, 2003 population report, you can see how Stewart can say that only 100 exist. And don't forget, of the 42 in PCGS and NGC pop reports, how many were removed and resubmitted for a higher grade? Don, nobody really knows how many are out there, but the rationale is that there are not many. Steveimage
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Stewart,
    Of course the comparison between the 1922 no "D" and the 1990 no "S" is like comparing apples to oranges. There are no 1922 plain cents that look anywhere as nice as a 1990 no "S". But, I'm guessing there were alot more 1922 no "D"'s made than 1990 no "S'. Steveimage
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    1centlincoln, you and I must have been writing at the same time. Thanks for confirming the story. Steveimage
  • Steve, I'm just glad our stories coincided down to the actual numbers!
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,509
    I agree the Redbook's figure was an estimate.I still believe there are some sets yet discovered.Look at all the 1960 sets that are truely unopened sold all the time.Look at all the posts of weather to open them or not.People buy proof sets all the time and just put them away.
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns


  • << <i>I still believe there are some sets yet discovered. >>



    Does anybody feel lucky?
    Dan

    My quarters:
    Silver
    Clad
    Statehood
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    I agree that there are some sets yet to be discovered. The "some" to me may be 100 or 200, not anywhere near 1,000 to 3,000. Certainly, any knowledgeable collector would be checking out for a $5,000 coin pretty quickly IMHO. Assuming that ultimately, in 2050 it is decided that 300 of these coins exist, what do you think their value would be compared to other Lincoln cents? Comments?
    Steve image
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭

    Merz 2 - At $10,000 to $15,000 a pop even I have been selkling some of my duplicates.Tell me where is the Beef of the 3,655 sets ?

    Steve - The difference is that ALL of the 90 No S cents are in Gem Proof.Of all the known 1922 No D cents less than 1% are mint state.

    Stewart
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Daniel, Why do you think that after 4 days of a 7 day auction there are no bidders for the coin at $390? Maybe the odds of hitting the jackpot are 200 to 3,299,559. That's a big gamble in my opinion. Steveimage
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,509
    The key words are "knowledgable collectors".Look at all the accumulators of Proof Sets.How many stories have we heard on these forums, of people selling the accumulated Proof Sets of elderly or deceased relatives.I agree we knowledgable collectors are searching for them,because of the prices realized.I can honestly say I keep hoping to find one ! I am hoping there are more than the 100 Stewart says,or even the 300 Steve says.Maybe I'm being optomistic.image
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns


  • << <i>Daniel, Why do you think that after 4 days of a 7 day auction there are no bidders for the coin at $390? Maybe the odds of hitting the jackpot are 200 to 3,299,559. That's a big gamble in my opinion. Steveimage >>



    I agree image
    Dan

    My quarters:
    Silver
    Clad
    Statehood
  • I think the longer the undiscovered "No S" examples remain in the original proof sets, the more likely they are to change color/luster and lose their DCAM status. If they eventually grade CA or even RD, even a large discovery of them in the future could keep the high DCAMs in a very elite and desirable group. I've cracked out several a few proof Lincolns from the 1960s sets and submitted them for grading, only to have them returned to me in grades of 66RD, 67CA, etc... I've noticed proof Lincolns just don't last well in those proof sets...I don't know if the Prestige sets are any different from the regular proof sets. If the undiscovered "No S" don't get discovered relatively soon, it may not really matter how many more we find. But it does almost seem a little strange that when 50 were accounted for almost immediately 14 years ago....we still have only approximately 50 accounted for today.
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Steve, Yep, that must be meimage."and there are also some people who foolishly allow these rare coins to continue to sit in the US Mint packaging"
    I have been talking about getting my no s cent certified for several months now, but I am having trouble making myself remove the coin from the original mint packaging because somehow it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. image I also have the 1970 no s dime, 1971 no s nickel, and 1983 no s dime proof sets all still in the original packaging. I just thought they were neat coins and liked them better in the original mint packaging.

    Do you think this coin is still a PR69DCAM Link

    Charlieimage
  • either way a very cool coin. I have always cherished my 1971 no S jeffery in 68cam...I think its going to mitchell for upgrading though, as under 10x I cant find any flaws.
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Charlie, each of us must make their own decision regarding how they wish to own and keep valuable coins. You apparently have a collection of the "no S" proof sets (bet you'd love to have the 1968 & 1975 dime also). I can understand enjoying them in their original packaging as opposed to puting them into individual slabs which are different denominations. Sometimes, it's NOT about potential future value, but more about personal enjoyment. I do believe there are a number of collectors, like you, who do keep these valuable coins in original proof set packaging for just that reason. That's why I am pretty sure that at least 100 of the Lincoln "no S" is out there, and maybe another 200 still to be discovered. I also agree with 1centlincoln that the longer these coins remain unslabbed (ie) not in PCGS,NGC or ANACS holders, the more valuable the coins that ARE in TPG holders will be in the future. Steveimage
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    I am having trouble making the decision to slab or not, as you can tell from my posts on this subject.

    More on coin deterioration in PCGS holders or mint packaging, do you think this coin is still a PR69DCAM with the tarnish spots that are on it now Link

    Charlieimage
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 26,678 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> That's why I am pretty sure that at least 100 of the Lincoln "no S" is out there, and maybe another 200 still to be discovered. I also agree with 1centlincoln that the longer these coins remain unslabbed (ie) not in PCGS,NGC or ANACS holders, the more valuable the coins that ARE in TPG holders will be in the future. Steveimage >>



    Your numbers sound like they're probably pretty accurate but those 200 "still to be discovered"
    are probably known to the owner and they simply have no interest in having them slabbed. My
    guess is the lion's share of these reside in collections and will not be slabbed for many years if
    ever. While unopened sets are hardly rare, especially for later date sets, they do represent a
    small fraction of all the sets in existence. Even among the relatively few "undiscovered" coins
    most probably are in an opened package that the owner didn't notice lacked the mint mark.
    Tempus fugit.
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭✭

    Well, all I gots ta say is that I wants me one!

    I have underbid the last 4 at auction though, plus one of them was offered to me before the auction and I blew it.

    Oh well, maybe one will come around and my offer will be good enough.

    I think this coin is awesome. I own all three of the No S Roosevelts, and they are really cool to have and look at.

    Doug
    The Ultimate Flying Eagles
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3203
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,509
    Did anyone notice the 1990 No S Prestige Proof Set on Ebay ? It sold for $5,600 to shortsleeved.He placed the winning bid in the last 20 seconds. I don't know who this shortsleeved is,but he buys and sells some of the highest graded Lincolns there are.He currently has both the 1909 & 1909 VDB PCGS MS67 RD on Ebay.From the pics they look pretty darn good to me.If only I had the money,those two would be mine.image
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • mozeppamozeppa Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭
    yep ...i wached it go down...wow 5600 bucks !!!!!! ipaid 3400 for mine 2 years ago.

    i recently bought a 84 ddo from shortsleeved ...he does buy high end stuff...nice guy too.
  • I know who shortsleeved is, at least in the registry! (I don't know if he wants me to give it away image.) I got my 09 (ms65) and 10-s (ms64) from him. Great coins and yes very nice guy! You can tell I got those 2 coins from him for I posted his nice pictures in my registry set. (He was right when he told me his ms65 1909 looked pretty much the same as his ms67!).

  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    One more piece of information on this very rare coin. It DOES have a key diagnostic which should appear on all existing examples. It is two parallel lines appearing right below the "V" in the intitials VDB on the shoulder. The lines go from the end of the shoulder to the rim edge. See the attached picture which appears on page 329 of Wexler and Flynn's 1996 book "The Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents." Owners, get your 10X glass and check it out! Steveimage
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Do you think this coin would still grade PR69DCAM at PCGS?Link

    Charlie
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Charlie,
    I hesitate to give a grade estimate based on a picture and I do not consider myself to be someone who can accurately predict what the PCGS graders will determine. That said, I would "imagine", based on your picture, that your 1990 no S would NOT grade as high as PR69 because of the toning you have. Mine is a PR68 and does not show any toning. I believe you will get a PR67, but that is just a guess. In my opinion, also, it really shouldn't matter what grade you get, your coin is a valuable one which should be in a top line TPG slab. I realize you hate to break-up your proof set, but base your decision on your personal enjoyment for your coin, NOT on the grade you "think" it will get. JMHO. Good luck. Steve image
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Steve, I was talking about the one that I Linked above that recently sold at the Superior auction. It looks like it has some toning spots.

    Charlie
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭✭

    Charlie, I bid on that coin, but didn't win it. The "spots" on the reverse appear to be on the holder and not on the coin. It is harder to tell about the obverse. I had the same thoughts you did about it, so my bid reflected that and I didn't win it of course.

    Doug
    The Ultimate Flying Eagles
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3203
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Charlie, sorry for the confussion. I relooked at your coin and it "looks" better than the PR69 in the auction. So what does that mean? It certainly doesn't mean that you will get a higher grade than the auction coin. I'm a little confused as to what your question is intended for. Steveimage
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Steve, I just was just wondering if the coin in the Superior Auction might have toned after being slabbed and and now not deserve the PR69DCAM grade? Or I guess I am actually asking, will any kind of toning reduce the grade on a modern proof Lincoln?

    Charlie
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭
    Charlie, again my opinion. Most collectors, given the choice, would prefer a clean coin rather than a SPOT TONING coin. Therefore, supposedly they would be willing to pay more for a clean coin. The grade on the slab is permenant and so the current "value" a coin has is NOT always determined by the grade on the slab. Of course, companies like PCGS "guarantee" their grade so they "might" agree to pay for the difference between current real value and current grade value. You asked if any kind of toning will decrease the grade. The real answer is: only if the grading service decides that it should. Some kinds of toning can increase value and possibly grade based on market grading, but I have not seen any kind of toning on modern Lincoln proof cents (DCAM) that I would think would increase the grade. Long winded answer. Hope I didn't confuse you more. Steveimage
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with Steve, but I also want to say that my experience with true rarities like this is that all TPG's are a little more liberal on the grade. (Did anyone really give a crap when the 1933 St. Gaudens graded 65??)

    I have not worked the 90 No S market, but I did study the No S Roosevelts pretty hard. The 1968 is probably more rare than the 90 Lincoln. For 1968 Roosevelts, there are 3 PR68's, and 3 PR68CA's. The price between them is negligible. The true rarity of the coin drives the value.

    Charlie, you own a very rare coin. Unless you intend to sell it, or need a number for your registry, I wouldn't bother sending it in.

    Doug
    The Ultimate Flying Eagles
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3203
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