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How Would You Handle This Situation?-Updated

SarasotaFrankSarasotaFrank Posts: 1,625 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I'm sort of confounded by a situation I am faced with.

Two months ago, I purchased an MS63 coin from a board member for a modest sum - generally 200 bucks.

I sent the coin to NGC two months ago and just got it back, in a bodybag for "altered surface".

I PMd the seller and let him know, and he offered a refund, stating pretty clearly that he saw nothing wrong with the coin. The seller has a great reputation and I certainly don't believe he purposefully sent me a bad coin.

Not only did he offer a refund, but he offered to pay the grading fee.

I offered to send the coin back for 15% less than I paid and eat the grading fee. I'll be out $50.00 bucks or so.

Is this unreasonable? Should I just eat this coin and consider it a lesson learned?

I would appreciate input regarding how others would handle this.

I won't reveal the seller's name in this thread or in a pm, and I would appreciate the seller not bringing themselves forward in this. I have mixed feelings on this issue and I am just seeking a concensus of opinion and not a debate over the coin.

I've decided not to send the coin back - even at the reduced price - my reasons are in a post at the bottom of the thread.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
«1

Comments

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,780 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Both of you are being extremely generous, each in your own way, and you both are giving this hobby a good name.

    peacockcoins

  • nolimitznolimitz Posts: 441 ✭
    What's unreasonable. he offered a refund and grading fees?
    Kiss him on each cheek and get on with it. imageimage
  • mojoriznmojorizn Posts: 1,380 ✭
    Hey Frank!

    I believe that I would return the coin and only accept a refund of the original purchase price from the seller out of respect for his generous offer. I would eat the submission fee and call it even.

    Mojo
    "I am the wilderness that is lost in man."
    -Jim Morrison-
    Mr. Mojorizn

    my blog:www.numistories.com
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295 ✭
    I agree with Pat Frank. You both seem to be very good guys, heck, I bought a coin from you and had no problem.

    With that being said, I would say that when you buy a raw coin, YOU should make the decision of whether or not the coin makes the grade. Grading services are not perfect, and to expect a seller to hang in the balance while you submit a coin is not reasonable. It sounds like you didn't do that here, the seller is just being nice. People need to judge for themselves once they get a coin they have bought, and not make it contingent on what a grading company does.
  • nOoBiEeEnOoBiEeE Posts: 1,011 ✭✭
    Sounds to me like an honest mistake. Seeing that the seller is willing to refund/reimburse, then I see nothing wrong.

    One part I did not understand, he offered to pay your grading fee but you counter-offered by saying you will pay it yourself?

    Disclaimer: If seller has a different story, this post is null and void...image
    Wanna See Some True Rainbow Toned Jeffferson Nickels??
    image
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What am I missing here? What is confounding about the situation? If you do not want the coin and the seller is honoring his piece by accepting a return (plus the grading fee!), help me understand the problem.

    It sounds like you have found a seller who cares about customer service.

    Lane
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • nankrautnankraut Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭
    I'm with mojorism.image
    I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
  • fullerfun4fullerfun4 Posts: 385
    Sounds fair either way. I'd accept a full refund and eat the grading cost.
    Gary
    We are always better off than we deserve. image
  • SarasotaFrankSarasotaFrank Posts: 1,625 ✭✭
    oyi - I guess I wasn't clear.

    The seller offered a full refund, but I feel bad about the length of time involved, so I offered to sell it back for $170.00 as opposed to the $200 I paid, and I eat the grading fee.

    My confoundedness is more based on should I just thanks but no thanks on the offer to buy it back?
    "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146 ✭
    what the hell do you want? i offered to pay the grading fee!!! damn!!!!

    lol j/k
    it wasnt me. image
  • AethelredAethelred Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭
    What is your honest opinion of the coin?
    If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:

    WNC Coins, LLC
    1987-C Hendersonville Road
    Asheville, NC 28803

    wnccoins.com
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SarasotaFrank: Dorkarl will figure out how to resolve this quandry both of you are in. image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295 ✭


    << <i>oyi - I guess I wasn't clear.

    The seller offered a full refund, but I feel bad about the length of time involved, so I offered to sell it back for $170.00 as opposed to the $200 I paid, and I eat the grading fee.

    My confoundedness is more based on should I just thanks but no thanks on the offer to buy it back? >>



    Geez Frank, that is awfully nice of you and sounds like the seller accepted.

    I still stand by my first comment though, you really need to look at a coin when you receive it and decide whether or not it is acceptable to you.
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146 ✭
    bet if you submitted it again, they,d get confused and think it was an `04 SAE and give it a 70.
  • SarasotaFrankSarasotaFrank Posts: 1,625 ✭✭


    << <i>What is your honest opinion of the coin? >>



    I liked it when I received it, but didn't look at it under a glass as I took it right for grading.

    Now that the problem area has been pointed out to me, I see it pretty clearly. If I had to keep it, it would be OK in my album, and better than the example I have there now, but I would know about the problem.
    "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What K6AZ said.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • SequiturSequitur Posts: 1,195
    I thought this was a sardonic post; that is, people behaving like adults merits its own post and even a request for assistance. What to do!
    Realtime National Debt Clock:

    image
  • solidsolid Posts: 2,975
    What Mojo proposed seems very fair.

    On the other hand, you stated that you "certainly don't believe he purposefully
    sent me a bad coin", and after receiving the coin, you deemed it worthy of keeping
    and submitting to NGC. This sounds like it is a decent coin and the next trip in it
    very well may "make the grade". What if the coin had graded 64?

    Ken

    P.S. I would happily deal with either of you in the future! image
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146 ✭
    and now for my next trick. dissing everyone for submitting coins (for your collection).

    why pay someelse to learn what you aready know?
    or if you dont know. learn...to grade for yourself in this case.

    ofcourse, it is encapsulated making it safe* for long term storage
    abd a nice display, but you can holder it yourself in an airtite as far as that goes.

    what i,m getting at is if your not looking to sell the coin, why have it slabbed and
    incur all the cost and mental anguish when it doesnt come back the grade `you thought it was`.

    *possibly

    to each his own i guess.

    okay, i vented.

    flame on.
    image
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭

    The coin goes back to the seller, he sends you your $200 back.

    Next case
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WAIT, hold it. What about shipping? Hopefully there will be some sort of problem with that.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    It seems to me that maybe you should have been able to detect the problem with the coin prior to submitting it....


    You must have seen the coin fit to submitt....

    maybe NGC is wrong.......

    Heck, Russel sent a DCAM Frankie to PCGs and got a bodybag for damage, he re-submitted and it graded...

    I bought a $2500 holdered coin from a wonderful board member......

    Many months later I sold it and had it returned on me, for guess what, damage on the coin....

    I did tell the original seller but didn't expect anything or want anything....... I should have caught it myself when the coin was 1st delieverd to me.... I didn't....

    Coin went into PCGs for grade review, and PCGs has taken care of the coin and me....

    I think the original seller on this one is off the hook.... but very nice with his/her offer....... Nice to know that the board members will take care of each other.
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146 ✭
    its just because your a girl. image
  • Prometheus183Prometheus183 Posts: 385
    On spot, Lucy image
    -----------------------

    On the other hand, you could always submit it to ACG,... it might come back as an MS70 or better! imageimageimage
    -----------------------

    Craig
    The Rede we live by: If it harms none, do what you will.
    image
  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    Frank, I certainly understand you concern about not wanting to take advantage of a seller's excessive generosity due to the extended ownership time prior to submitting and the fact you bought it raw and apparently liked the coin until you sent for grading. Unlike some others, I'm glad you didn't just unquestioningly accept the sellers offer...but instead tested the 'moral waters' here. Between the 2 solutions, I like your idea better. I do think you should swallow some of the original cost of the coin as well as the grading fee. I think this is the first thread I've read where the buyer & seller were trying to out do one another with their niceness and fairness. What a world!

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hey Frank

    i get the impression that you like the coin, just not the NGC opinion of it. you should probably just send it back and move on having learned a lesson.

    al h.image
  • eminememinem Posts: 258
    Take the refund on thecoin and eat the grading fee. whether you send in the coin is your option. you might have just bought it to keep it raw so the grading loss is your lunch.....not a bad situation to be in...both sides willing to do the right thing
  • ealandgealandg Posts: 705
    I recently had a similar situation. I ate the grading fees and the shipping costs and accepted a refund on the coin.

    I think it is funny that so many of you are saying "you should have caught this yourself". That is part of the reason we send things to grading services. To authenticate and inspect our purchases.

    I do think it is nice that you want to pay a "restocking fee", but doubt it is necessary.
  • MacCrimmonMacCrimmon Posts: 7,058 ✭✭✭
    Accept the generous refund offer, eat the grading fee, and buy the guy a nice dinner the next time you meet at a coin show.



    << <i>With that being said, I would say that when you buy a raw coin, YOU should make the decision of whether or not the coin makes the grade. Grading services are not perfect, and to expect a seller to hang in the balance while you submit a coin is not reasonable. >>



    ....and, keep in mind that the services are far from perfect....they get a lot right and they miss a lot.
  • WondoWondo Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭
    Send the coin back and accept the refund.
    Wondo

  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,776 ✭✭✭✭
    What mojo said.
    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • razorface1027razorface1027 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
    I believe that I would return the coin and only accept a refund of the original purchase price from the seller out of respect for his generous offer. I would eat the submission fee and call it even.

    I gotta go with mojo. If it'd make you feel any better, and I hope I don't sound like I'm cackling...I purchased a MS-62 $2-1/2 Dol. Gold piece in a NGC Slab. Ended up cracking it out and submitting to PCGS only to have it returned BB'ed...Out $400.00image
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • zennyzenny Posts: 1,547 ✭✭
    either pop the coin in the album or send back the coin and ask for a hundred bucks - consider the money well spent toward your diploma in the numismatic school of hard knocks....
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    I would have thanked the seller for the generous offer, but would not have accepted it. I'd have simply taken my lumps. But, that's just me.



    << <i>I sent the coin to NGC two months ago and just got it back, in a bodybag for "altered surface". >>



    I had a Two Cent Piece bodybagged for altered surfaces. Now graded. I had a proof Frankie bodybagged for environmental damage. Now graded. I had a Morgan bodybagged for artificial color. Now graded. I've had several Jeffersons bodybagged for artificial color. Now graded.

    The services are frequently wrong, and I'm not going to go after a seller after I've had a chance to evaluate the coin myself and then chose to submit it for grading.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • TsimmerdownTsimmerdown Posts: 361 ✭
    Accept the full refund, split the grading fee and shipping costs 50-50. Also, since the seller seems pretty decent, make a sincere promise that next time you're looking for a coin that you'll see if you can buy one from him/her if they have one available for sale. Personally, I reward good service with repeat business. Sellers who are flexible, courteous, and willing to work with you in a professional manner earn my repeat business. I make a point of going to that seller first.
    Tim
  • NeptuneNeptune Posts: 2,221
    yes, I would just accept the refund for original price. Since you are probably paying shipping both ways - you could split that. If he 'insists' on paying grading fee, then just offer to split difference on that. If he doesn't insist, then just eat the grading fee and get on with your life.
  • bxbbxb Posts: 805 ✭✭
    The seller is under no obligation to refund your money, unless it explicitly stated so in the auction. Many raw coins on ebay are cleaned or have other problems, that is why you stick with certified coins from the major grading services if you can't tell from the picture or your own lack of grading skills. By the way ebay is not alone here, I have bought raw coins from some of the leading coin auction houses and had them returned in body bags after I sent them in to be graded. That is why most of the leading auction firms all have a disclaimer about cleaned coins.

    In your case, the seller is being very professional. You should kiss him wherever you think appropriate and accept his refund, even though he is under no obligation to give you one.

    Live long and prosper.
    Capecards
  • LAWMANLAWMAN Posts: 1,274 ✭✭
    Crack it out and re-submit it a few times.
    DSW
  • SarasotaFrankSarasotaFrank Posts: 1,625 ✭✭
    generally:

    I didn't "go after" the seller on this coin. I did inform him that it came back BBd without further comment.

    The seller offered to buy it back.

    I offered further financial consideration to the seller to ease the burden of taking it back.

    After reading the comments here, I've decided not to send it back.

    I guess I've just had a bad stretch. In the same submission, I sent in a 22-No D cent I bought locally about the same time. Came back as a 22-D. I promptly gave that one back. Interesting the seller said NGC doesn't recognize certain die sets on No-Ds, and PCGS does. I told him to send it to PCGS and he said he would just as soon buy it back.

    Had another instance where I bought a coin for someone looking for a certain coin, as a courtesy - pass through at cost. By the time I bought the coin, he changed his mind.

    I ate that one.

    "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
  • ConstellatioCollectorConstellatioCollector Posts: 1,909
    I think the seller is a class act. Send it back and eat the grading fee! Chock that cost up to experience!!!

    One more observation... The two of you make the membership of this board "ELITE"!!!
    Constellatio Collector sevenoften@hotmail.com
    ---------------------------------
    "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
    "If it don't make $"
    "It don't make cents""
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭


    << <i>"I think it is funny that so many of you are saying "you should have caught this yourself". That is part of the reason we send things to grading services. To authenticate and inspect our purchases.
    >>



    He should have if it really does have damage... Just as I should have caught the damage on the Franklin I mentioned...

    I don't know about you but I don't blindly submit coins because they are professionals and I hope that I didn't submit a problem coin.

    This is why you must learn to grade yourself and grade accordingly.... Then one must know what NGC or PCGs looks for in a given grade...

    That way you don't send in 10 coins that all get bagg'd because you chose to: "That is part of the reason we send things to grading services. To authenticate and inspect our purchases. "

    Honey, you must inspect your purchase first, prior to submitting....
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    In fact, I inspect prior to even purchasing!
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • SarasotaFrankSarasotaFrank Posts: 1,625 ✭✭
    Lucy:

    The problem was minute, overshadowed by otherwise beautiful aspects of the coin.

    I already said I decided to not send it back.

    There's a story about a dead horse . . .
    "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    my last two replies were not directed at you Frankie.....
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • ealandgealandg Posts: 705
    Well, it seems like the best thing for getting good at grading is.....experience. Since I don't have much of that, I have to resign myself to relying on the pros.
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    Honey, you can be the pro, thats what I'm trying to say, albiet in a very poor way....

    Study those coins, all the slabs you see, study all the raw coins, equip yourself with books, with knowledge...

    use submissions as learning tools......

    once you have it all down, you'll make mince-meat out of those grumpy dealers!

    I know it!

    You can be a pro, we have better eyes then all these men!
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • ealandgealandg Posts: 705
    Well Lucy, I'm trying. I think I'm getting better and then I get a nasty ol' body bag...

    I do think that I am beginning to understand what PCGS is looking for. I bought the new grading book that they just put out and am trying to get out to shows and things so I can do just that.

    I guess the bags are a good learning experience. There sure is a lot to learn. I guess I'll keep hitting these boards and hopefully I can learn from someone else's mistakes once in awhile instead of just my own...
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    Honey, I got a bodybag on a quarter that didn't surprise me......

    I have some other toners in that can go either way....

    I have made several AU58's in Classic Commems......

    But I'll tell you, my successes far out-number my failures.....

    Your doing the right things..........

    I'll say it over and over and over.... Ever see a man look at a diamond.....??

    They roll their eyes..... I buy certified diamonds and I know their quality and color spectrums...

    Its in us, to spot GEMs.........
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    Sometimes, you can be very experienced, and still get bodybags... Sometimes its the mistake of the grading company...

    Again Russel had a proof Frankie get bagg'd....

    Russels knows his proofs....

    He re-submitted and bingo, it got graded.... a pr67dcam if I remember correctly.....

    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • ealandgealandg Posts: 705
    Hmmm. Well, I did recently have an interesting situation. I sent in a draped bust quarter to PCGS about 4 years ago - bagged for altered surfaces. I wanted it in a slab, so I sent it to PCI. It came back in a green holder. About 3 weeks ago I resubmitted it as a cross to PCGS and it crossed.

    Those bags are always a bummer, even when you're pretty sure they are wrong.

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