Slabbed coins! Wake up people!!!
ksteelheader
Posts: 11,777 ✭
I'm not starting this to make trouble. We always hear the statement about "if it was really that grade it would be slabbed" or "it would be in so and so's slab".
I hate to sound rude, but that coin had to at sometime in its life be in a raw state outside of any slab. Hell, if someone didn't take the inititive to have it slabbed by someone, it would be in the raw state presently.
Granted, some salbbing companies are better than others. But, I've seen coins in all of the different companies slabs that were graded properly, and I've seen the opposite.
But, to be constantly coming down on people because the coin is raw or slabbed by some company we especially don't like is wrong!
JMO....Ken
I hate to sound rude, but that coin had to at sometime in its life be in a raw state outside of any slab. Hell, if someone didn't take the inititive to have it slabbed by someone, it would be in the raw state presently.
Granted, some salbbing companies are better than others. But, I've seen coins in all of the different companies slabs that were graded properly, and I've seen the opposite.
But, to be constantly coming down on people because the coin is raw or slabbed by some company we especially don't like is wrong!
JMO....Ken
0
Comments
ksteelheader,
Of course I agree with what you are saying, but if someone offers for example a raw 1921 Peace $ that they claim is MS65 for $1500 (a very fair price for a true 65), it is really taking their word that it is that grade. Also, if the holder is something other then PCGS/NGC it is also putting faith into a slab that you may not trust. People are always saying "Buy the coin, not the holder" to ad nuseaum levels, but if you make a purchase over the internet, you are only seeing scans or pictures.
Personally I don't have enough money to risk paying $1500 for a coin that may be worth say $200, therefore if I am buying a coin like my example over ebay or this forum, it would have to be PCGS or NGC graded.
Of course, people shouldn't bash someone's coin for being raw, but if they are so sure it is MS65 or whatever, it would probably do them well to get it graded by PCGS anyway (at least from a money standpoint)
JJacks
<< <i>but that coin had to at sometime in its life be in a raw state outside of any slab. >>
Not true. All coins are born in a slab, just like all meat originates at the grocery store.
Russ, NCNE
you realize it's a waste of time and you'll now see the regular parade of members log-in. some people just refuse to learn how to grade or trust what they know, and the only alternative is to rely on a TPG opinion. to bad for them. the holder bias is here to stay, you'll never change that.
al h.
Raw at it's finest:
keets,
You gotta admit however that PCGS does help protect alot of people. I mean I have a PCGS MS64 1921 Peace $, worth maybe $600, compared to $2000+ in 65. Many dealers would take this coin out of the slab and sell it as a 65, and honestly I don't think they would have much trouble convincing people it was. They would put it on sale for "only" $1500 and someone would think they got a bargain.
As far as people learning how to grade for themselves, I think that is really a very difficult challenge for most people, as to truly know how to grade all kinds of coins requires familiarity with the different dates/mint marks, etc. (i.e. knowing that 21-S Morgans come weakly struck, etc. - simple example, but for most people, they will never fully be able to grade all coins properly).
JJacks
<< <i>Of course I agree with what you are saying, but if someone offers for example a raw 1921 Peace $ that they claim is MS65 for $1500 (a very fair price for a true 65), it is really taking their word that it is that grade. >>
If that particular coin is slabbed then all you are doing then is taking the word of the TPG, no? The natural response to that is "but I trust the TPG more than the dealer". If so, why? I know MANY dealers (and collectors for that matter) that know MORE about a particular series than any TPG. It depends of course....
The bottom line is YOU should know before you go buy that Peace dollar if it is truly MS65. YOU are paying the money so YOU know how to grade that coin. Frankly, you should not be buying $1500 coins if you can't grade at that level.
jom
<< <i>Raw at it's finest: >>
Not even close. This is raw at it's finest:
Russ, NCNE
The bottom line is YOU should know before you go buy that Peace dollar if it is truly MS65. YOU are paying the money so YOU know how to grade that coin. Frankly, you should not be buying $1500 coins if you can't grade at that level.
jom,
Agree, but nobody, and I mean nobody can grade 100%. You can certainly trust your grading and be in better shape then alot of others, but if the coin is also in a PCGS holder that says MS65, it certainly says something more then just trusting yourself. As I said NOBODY can grade perfect all the time, and my MS64 Peace $ is nicer then alot of the "raw" 65's I see out there. If you buy raw, you are trusting yourself, and if you trust yourself, that is fine!
JJacks
<< <i>Agree, but nobody, and I mean nobody can grade 100%. >>
Exactly and neither do the TPG's.
<< <i>but if the coin is also in a PCGS holder that says MS65, it certainly says something more then just trusting yourself. >>
Personally (I don't know about other people), I use that as a beginning point. Actually, that's not quite true. The beginning point is when I first see the coin and say "I like it". THEN I note the grade on the holder to get a general idea of what it's worth. At that point I grade it myself to see if there is a "down side" to the coin. If all goes well I ask the price (or I price it for an auction or whatever). If I find it overgraded (ie over priced) I pass.
BTW, I'd like to point out if the next lowest grade isn't that much lower I might very well buy the coin anyway if I like it enough. It depends....
<< <i>MS64 Peace $ is nicer then alot of the "raw" 65's I see out there. >>
Probably true since, I'd guess, the vast majory of Peace dollars (nice ones anyway) have been slabbed.
jom
<< <i>If that particular coin is slabbed then all you are doing then is taking the word of the TPG, no? The natural response to that is "but I trust the TPG more than the dealer". If so, why? I know MANY dealers (and collectors for that matter) that know MORE about a particular series than any TPG. It depends of course.... >>
Absolutely, but TPG is just that--"third party." By FAR most coin dealers are and honest and know as much or more about coins as PCGS, NGC, etc., but there is always the questions of conflict of interest. Just as an example: my parents recently sold their house. Their realtor frequently sells the houses she lists for sale, which means she's an agent for the buyer AND the seller. She's a very honest lady and seems really nice, but there is always some question of whose best interest she'd be looking for in that situation--the interest of the buyer or the seller? In the same way a lot of people look to the third-party simply for confirmation. I think it's MS65, and the dealer thinks its MS65, and if PCGS thinks its MS65, then it probably is. Whereas if it's my mediocre grading skills without any third-party to back up my hunch, I'm going to get nervous.
Those that can afford to go to every major coin show and take grading classes, etc., are able to grade their series better because they see tons of examples all the time. But us "poor college kids" often don't have the money to travel to the big coin shows and have to rely on whatever turns up at our once-a-year 30 table coin show, which may not be much. In the same way, I can't afford to attend a grading class, though I'd absolutely love to at some point. In fact, it's kinda my dream to one day go to a "real" coin show, but until then I will have to rely on TPG since I have no way to build my grading skills. Yes, you can read books, but I think looking at the coin does better than books.
And for coins people buy online, TPG all the way. If you can't see the coin to grade it, you pretty much have to rely on TPG services. Now in person it's a different matter, of course.
I do think sometimes slabs really detract from the coin. I've looked at several St. Gaudens $20 online and in the big plastic slab they appear so imposing, but when I saw one in a 2x2 at a local dealer's the other day, I was amazed by the beauty of the coin, because it was seeing it closer to its natural state, not as part of some imposing slab. Hopefully this paragraph actually makes sense, not sure if I've really conveyed my meaning
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i> In the same way a lot of people look to the third-party simply for confirmation. >>
Why? How are they any better than the dealer you are dealing with? Some are and some aren't.
<< <i>there is always the questions of conflict of interest >>
Of course the dealer has his own interest in mind but so do YOU. You are in control because you can either buy the coin or not. Your choice.
<< <i>I can't afford to attend a grading class, >>
Buy you can afford losing tons of money by buying overgraded coins though?
If you don't have the time to invest in your education you are going to get burned....a LOT. Trust me...I know.
jom
<< <i>I'm not starting this to make trouble. We always hear the statement about "if it was really that grade it would be slabbed" or "it would be in so and so's slab". >>
I always felt that argument was moreso aimed at the really high-end market. The great rarities of the world. And mainly that argument was about problem coins. Why is that 1864L proof IHC not in a slab, well, it may be a problem coin and not able to get into one. That's my take on it.
Best danged advice I've seen on this forum yet !!!
THANK YOU
Tom
You're now official, Bubba 4/24/04
<< <i>but I prefer to buy decent raw coins myself when I can... >>
I don't have any choice. I'm too poor to buy the coins I need already slabbed, so I have to buy them raw and submit them myself.
Russ, NCNE
hey ddink
that is one of the biggest misconceptions i've seen posted here in a while. i find that some dealers are indeed knowledgeable in certain areas, but overwhelmingly the entire dealer population is in possession of limited overall knowledge of U.S.Coinage. typicxally, they no key dates and well publicized rarities or notable coins in addition to reading a mean Grey Sheet and knowing how to price-for-profit.
no brag, just fact--------at every show i go to i consider that in certain areas i have the advantage over every dealer on the floor and vice versa. the number one thing to remember is what each of our limitations are in that regard. that is also a good way to think when dealing with the grading services.
al h.
<< <i>But, why do you find so many more better ones than me???... >>
HMM...don't know about that. You've had some pretty tasty acqusitions as of late.
Russ, NCNE
You and ken have both had some very good luck lately IMHO
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Ditto, what Russ said ... learning how to expertly grade a few series and then developing a discerning eye can help turn raws into treasure ...
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
I think you are more likely to hear that if seller ABC would put THAT coin in a PCGS slab he would get 10 times as much $$$ for it as it looks like he is getting now. How many times have you seen semi key dates coins advertised as $1500 au55's fail to bring even a 3rd of that. Coins listed on eBay as being worth $1500 and a BIN of $495. I should take Joe EBayers word that that raw coin really is a ms65? Yeah right. At least with most TPG slabbed coins the owner has some recourse if it is misgraded. As a seller you may be screwing yourself when that ms64 mite actually be ms66.
<< <i>Buy you can afford losing tons of money by buying overgraded coins though? >>
No, but I can have a trusted third-party (i.e. dealer) look at it for a modest fee, after, of course, I've looked at the coin (for whatever my opinion is worth). I'm just saying that many are more comfortable having a third-party back them up--whether PCGS, NGC, another dealer, another collector, etc.
who acted as their agents in gathering up the coins and evaluating them before
the collectors reviewed them. Since the collectors generally had deep pockets and
the dealer agents were making good money for there services, everything was honky dory.
Camelot
Some Paybay auctions are a prime example. The title might include a figure of it's worth being $10,000, or some other astronomical figure. In these cases I have no problems asking the seller why they don't crack it out and submit it to PCGS or NGC so they can fetch the value they're claiming it's worth. Just the way I am I guess,... I hate it when these people try to baffle others with BS.
As for raw coins, if I see something I want and can afford it, I buy it. Not long ago I bought a raw SLQ and posted pics inquiring about it's grade. The range was from AU58 to MS64 I believe. I graded this for myself at around MS62 FH, but the point is, even if once I submit it for grading and it comes back less than what I think it should, it's still worth what I paid for it to me, because the luster is fabulous, it is a full head (and not ACG's kinda FH), and comparing it to other NGC and PCGS FH SLQs I've seen at MS62, they can't hold a candle to this one.
I'm proud of myself, because I not only bought the coin (I won't say the rest), I'm learning how to buy the right coin. At least for me.
Craig
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
(Hey.
peacockcoins
Others may prefer the safety net that PCGS & NGC third party grading provides with market value money-back guarantees against counterfeits, altered, over-graded or coins that "turned" in the holder. They also are usually graded accurately to within a grading point either above or below the assigned grade.
I like to purchase undergraded (or liner) slabbed coins which I feel are priced at the lower designated grade, but I personally feel are worth the next higher grade because of high eye appeal. Those are the coins which I very selectively look for in person at coin shows and with trusted dealers.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
It helps every once in a while to get all of the thoughts on a subject on the floor. This helps not only the new people here, but everyone! Thanks to all who responded....Ken
However, I would also agree that there are a lot of coins that have been held in collections for a long period of time by "Strong-Handed" collectors that have been off the actively traded coin market for years and decades, some from decades well before the slabbing phenomenon of the mid-1980's was initiated...
I have had some of my type coins, Morgans and $20 Gold pieces that I personally purchased in the late 1970's and early 1980's -- which have never seen the actively traded coin market. I must also add that grading has advanced a whole lot since those days when an uncirculated coins was either:
BU - Brilliant Uncirculated (MS-60)
Ch. Unc - Choice Uncirculated (MS-63)
Gem Unc - Gem Uncirculated (MS-65)
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>No, but I can have a trusted third-party (i.e. dealer) look at it for a modest fee, after, of course, I've looked at the coin (for whatever my opinion is worth). I'm just saying that many are more comfortable having a third-party back them up--whether PCGS, NGC, another dealer, another collector, etc. >>
Again, there is nothing wrong with buying slabbed coins. What is wrong (IMO) is totally depending on someone else (whether that is another dealer, collector or TPG) to evaluate your coins for you. Which I, unfortunatly, see a LOT of people doing.
I'm only suggesting you use the slabbed grade as a beginning point NOT an end. Another words let the slabbed grade get you "in the ballpark" then use your own judgement on whether the coin is worth the asking price AND whether you actually like it. After awhile you'll notice you won't need that slabbed grade as much as you originally thought (at least for the coins you are familiar with and collect). You'll just have to trust me on this one.
jom
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I even feel that when you specialize in a series you can often use the slabbed designated coin grade as a bargaining edge when negotiating a price for a coin, and also use a 2nd/3rd tier slab to get the price down for a coin that you know is a bargain, because those slabbed coins are not as liquid as the PCGS/NGC slabbed coins
If the PCGS/NGC slab says MS-63 and you think it's got 64/65 eye appeal then the MS-63 is a good negotiation point in your favor. If it's a common date Morgan Dollar, it's generally not worth the dealer's time & money to resubmit the coin for a shot at 64. It's sometimes not worth their trouble to submit a 64 that's a shot-65.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"