My take on the Flea Market Fiasco thread in which TBT is currently embroiled....
gsaguy
Posts: 2,425 ✭
First, let me say I've not read the entire thread, but I have read enough to get a 'flavor' for the issues being discussed.
My first exposure to Bryan Orsborne with TBT was a couple of years ago when he was selling AT'd coins on ebay. I watched as he was flamed, and then as he finally joined the fray because someone told him he was being discussed on the forum. I remained neutral until someone said, "well, he's in the bullion business so it's BS when he says he doesn't know anything about AT'd coins".
Wrong. Knowing something about bullion does not translate into knowing anything about toning. I did not get the impression from anything he said that he was knowingly trying to peddle AT'd coins, and my belief was later proved correct. He loved toned coins, but was green. We've all been in that position.
He and I corresponded, finally met, and we have become friends. I've had a few more years in the industry than he so he has tried to learn as much about the market as I can share with him. He and I don't always see eye to eye on business practices, but I have not seen him do, or ever imply that he intends to do anything that I would consider dishonest.
My experience with Bryan is that what he lacks in diplomacy, he makes worse with brutal honesty. Based on a comment he made, he apparently sees trying to maximize the value of every single coin in his inventory as greed. That's fine, but I'd never put it that way. What he sees as greed, I see as fulfilling the fiduciary responsibility he has to his family to run his business in a profitable manner and to provide for their futures.
Trying to maximize the value of a coin, either via the plastic of a grading service, or via NGC's new 'conservation' service, is an accepted practice in today's coin industry. An individual collector/dealer may agree or disagree with those practices, but it's hard to disagree with the fact that both plastic and conservation services are now widely accepted. And while a grade on a holder is nothing more than someone's opinion, those holders have provided our hobby with some level of stability and confidence in the products we buy. However, as with everything else in life, it's the individual's responsibility to be knowledgeable and comfortable with the investments he makes.
Eric (K6AZ) has also weighed in on some of these issues and is entitled to his beliefs and opinions. While I've not had the privilege of meeting him personally, I have shared numerous PM's with him and have found him to be very knowledgeable about many general subjects-numismatic, and about toned coins in particular. I've also found him to be most helpful EVERY time I've ever asked a favor. He's a valued member of this forum and I hope to see his continued posting and input into the forum. I hope that he and Bryan can agree to disagree on some of these issues yet remain the gentlemen that I believe them both to be.
Okay, here are my personal views on some of the subjects related to the issues. These views and $0.75 will get you a cup of coffee in most restaurants.
Opinion: A coin dealer's responsibility to his clients is to give them proper value for the money they spend with him. A good coin dealer will neither make you rich overnight, nor bury you in his inventory. Yes, we all would like to get a 'deal' from time to time, and many times we do get just that. But whether buying or selling, each and every one of us wants to maximize the return on our investment. There is nothing dishonest about that and dealers should strive to do the same.
Opinion: Often, the price a dealer or collector pays for a coin has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the true value of the coin. Some of us overpay, some of us underpay, some of us pay just right.....but at the end of the day, a coin is worth what it is. That can also be said even if the coin is in the holder of a third party grading service. It's just their opinion. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not........you get the picture.
Opinion: It is unreasonable to say to a dealer or collector; "well, you paid $XX for a coin therefore you should only mark it up XX%". Again, the coin is worth what it is worth. When it was purchased, and how much was paid has nothing to do with the coin's value today. Suppose a dealer or collector overpaid, should he still be guaranteed a profit? I don't think so. As with everything else in life, you should know what you're doing before you do it; you take the risk of losing some of your money every time you make an investment....and coins are ultimately investments.
Opinion: While such things as strike and bagmarks on the surface of a coin can provide valuable clues as to today's grade of a given piece, subjective qualities such as eye appeal and toning are much more difficult to quantify, hence they can have a dramatic positive or negative impact on the market value of a given coin. This is why two coins of the same denomination, the same date/mintmark, in the same grade, and in the same 3rd party's holder, will often bring widely different prices.
Opinion: For beautifully toned Morgans, in today's marketplace, the printed grade on the holder often has little to do with the true value of the coin. You've all seen the best toned Morgans sell for 10 or 20 times sheet prices for that date/mintmark in that grade. While the number of bagmarks and the strike certainly have an impact, the quality of the color and the coin's eye appeal tend to be the determining factor in what a willing buyer will pay.
Fact: I've got a flat tire on my pickup truck and must now change it before I run out of daylight. I thank you all for taking the time to read my drivel and hope to meet each and every one of you one of these days.
GSAGUY
My first exposure to Bryan Orsborne with TBT was a couple of years ago when he was selling AT'd coins on ebay. I watched as he was flamed, and then as he finally joined the fray because someone told him he was being discussed on the forum. I remained neutral until someone said, "well, he's in the bullion business so it's BS when he says he doesn't know anything about AT'd coins".
Wrong. Knowing something about bullion does not translate into knowing anything about toning. I did not get the impression from anything he said that he was knowingly trying to peddle AT'd coins, and my belief was later proved correct. He loved toned coins, but was green. We've all been in that position.
He and I corresponded, finally met, and we have become friends. I've had a few more years in the industry than he so he has tried to learn as much about the market as I can share with him. He and I don't always see eye to eye on business practices, but I have not seen him do, or ever imply that he intends to do anything that I would consider dishonest.
My experience with Bryan is that what he lacks in diplomacy, he makes worse with brutal honesty. Based on a comment he made, he apparently sees trying to maximize the value of every single coin in his inventory as greed. That's fine, but I'd never put it that way. What he sees as greed, I see as fulfilling the fiduciary responsibility he has to his family to run his business in a profitable manner and to provide for their futures.
Trying to maximize the value of a coin, either via the plastic of a grading service, or via NGC's new 'conservation' service, is an accepted practice in today's coin industry. An individual collector/dealer may agree or disagree with those practices, but it's hard to disagree with the fact that both plastic and conservation services are now widely accepted. And while a grade on a holder is nothing more than someone's opinion, those holders have provided our hobby with some level of stability and confidence in the products we buy. However, as with everything else in life, it's the individual's responsibility to be knowledgeable and comfortable with the investments he makes.
Eric (K6AZ) has also weighed in on some of these issues and is entitled to his beliefs and opinions. While I've not had the privilege of meeting him personally, I have shared numerous PM's with him and have found him to be very knowledgeable about many general subjects-numismatic, and about toned coins in particular. I've also found him to be most helpful EVERY time I've ever asked a favor. He's a valued member of this forum and I hope to see his continued posting and input into the forum. I hope that he and Bryan can agree to disagree on some of these issues yet remain the gentlemen that I believe them both to be.
Okay, here are my personal views on some of the subjects related to the issues. These views and $0.75 will get you a cup of coffee in most restaurants.
Opinion: A coin dealer's responsibility to his clients is to give them proper value for the money they spend with him. A good coin dealer will neither make you rich overnight, nor bury you in his inventory. Yes, we all would like to get a 'deal' from time to time, and many times we do get just that. But whether buying or selling, each and every one of us wants to maximize the return on our investment. There is nothing dishonest about that and dealers should strive to do the same.
Opinion: Often, the price a dealer or collector pays for a coin has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the true value of the coin. Some of us overpay, some of us underpay, some of us pay just right.....but at the end of the day, a coin is worth what it is. That can also be said even if the coin is in the holder of a third party grading service. It's just their opinion. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not........you get the picture.
Opinion: It is unreasonable to say to a dealer or collector; "well, you paid $XX for a coin therefore you should only mark it up XX%". Again, the coin is worth what it is worth. When it was purchased, and how much was paid has nothing to do with the coin's value today. Suppose a dealer or collector overpaid, should he still be guaranteed a profit? I don't think so. As with everything else in life, you should know what you're doing before you do it; you take the risk of losing some of your money every time you make an investment....and coins are ultimately investments.
Opinion: While such things as strike and bagmarks on the surface of a coin can provide valuable clues as to today's grade of a given piece, subjective qualities such as eye appeal and toning are much more difficult to quantify, hence they can have a dramatic positive or negative impact on the market value of a given coin. This is why two coins of the same denomination, the same date/mintmark, in the same grade, and in the same 3rd party's holder, will often bring widely different prices.
Opinion: For beautifully toned Morgans, in today's marketplace, the printed grade on the holder often has little to do with the true value of the coin. You've all seen the best toned Morgans sell for 10 or 20 times sheet prices for that date/mintmark in that grade. While the number of bagmarks and the strike certainly have an impact, the quality of the color and the coin's eye appeal tend to be the determining factor in what a willing buyer will pay.
Fact: I've got a flat tire on my pickup truck and must now change it before I run out of daylight. I thank you all for taking the time to read my drivel and hope to meet each and every one of you one of these days.
GSAGUY
0
Comments
that whole thing got out of hand. Whenever there is a discussion of grading and/or crackouts and/or resubmissions, there's gonna be a lot of strong opinions.
I for one pay WAAYYY too dang much for toners
<< <i>Often, the price a dealer or collector pays for a coin has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the true value of the coin. >>
So very true.
Russ, NCNE
But the bottom line here is that coin now sits in a 64 holder. It has nice pretty obverse bag toning, but it is not a banded rainbow. Since it is now a 64, it is grouped with any other common 64. Coins with this sort of nice obverse toning typically go in the 500-800 price range, and I could see this going for a little more than that since it is a slightly better date.
My gripe is that a lot of the people who are relatively new to the toned Morgan market call every coin with nice colors a "rainbow" and in turn, try to get true rainbow money for them.
I agree with just about everything you say, but I'll be damed if I'll pay $.75 for a cup of coffee!
Very well stated.
Eric / K6AZ - How about backing off a bit? I think you made your points abundantly clear in the other thread. It's getting old.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
To sell his coin, the owner wants to package it as best he can. Since he is in business he wants to make the best possible profit.
I like the fact that PCGS graded it a 64 after the coin went thru NCS.
I'd like to beleive that PCGS actually detected the "conservation", but it was probably just a normal deviation in their grading.
So any dealer is free to spend as much money as they want to market their coin. And just because you spend the money doesn't make it worth what you spent.
What anything is "worth" is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Did that thread get ugly?
I better backtrack...
Although I disagreed with the grade in a 66 holder and the crackout, how did the thread turn into a TBT bashing session?
Hmmmm...
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Wisdom and age rarely correlate more succinctly than it does with the GSAGUY >>
Yeah buddy - GSAGUY's an old fart - but a smart fart
jom
njcoincrank
<< <i>I have not seen him do, or ever imply that he intends to do anything that I would consider dishonest. >>
-this is where I have to speak up because I know him as a bald faced LIAR!
I first met Bryan Orsborne from TBT at Long Beach fall of 03. While chatting, I noticed a coin in his case that I was interested in. We settled on a price of $325 but I only had $100 with me since I was not there to buy. We agreed that I would send him a check the next day and he would send me the coin once payment was cleared. We also agreed that he would send me photographs of the coin on floppy disk along with the coin and the invoice. This was part of the negotiated price.
Two weeks later, coin arrives but nothing else. I sent an email to let him know that it arrived but that the pictures were not included. That is where the excuses and lies started, "they were sent", "my photography department must have messed up", "it's in the mail now", "did you get it yet?".
Four weeks and 5 emails of excuses and lies and I finally had to ask him to loose my contact information. The ease with which the lies flowed from this guy was sickening. Ironically, this deal was consumated right in front of GSAguy though he probably never knew of it's sour outcome.
This dealer is on my avoid list!
Not sure what happened but I completely disagree. TBT has been great to me - excellent coins, even better service. I have had no issues doing business with them and will continue to do so.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
How about letting people defend themselves?
No wonder you think everybody tries to max out every coin.
You have most of the facts correct. We screwed the pooch on that deal and by the time its was figured out you made it clear not to contact you about the matter. Just to highlight a few things:
1. Talked about toners with you and your wife for around 2 hours
2. Came down on the price by $200 for the coin
3. Allowed you to put $100 down and take the rest in the mail as the invoice as written at the show (would you like a sign copy posted to the board?)
4. Offered to get the pictures and burn them to a CD (to big for a floppy) and send them to you.
5. FULL refund offered and refused when you first became belligerent via email….not mad but belligerent.
I abided by your request and never contacted you again. WE screwed up and if given the chance would have made it right. I would be happy to discuss this either via PM, email, or phone. I had a blast meeting you and your wife but there were honest mistakes made on our end.
Bryan Orsborn
Texas Bullion Traders
<< <i>Well, at least now I know why you are laying it on me.
How about letting people defend themselves?
No wonder you think everybody tries to max out every coin. >>
Eric,
I piss off a few people each year out of blunt communications or just plain stupid mistakes. I am not perfect nor do I ever claim to be…….but you have no business judging me or any other person given your continued behavior on these boards.
TBT
Oh. Now I understand.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This dealer is on my avoid list! >>
And he will NEVER miss your business. You rant on a public forum about some silly pictures? Pathetic.
<< <i> piss off a few people each year out of blunt communications or just plain stupid mistakes >>
Hey you haven't upset me THIS year yet. Plenty of time left though.
Doug
<< <i>Bryan, you have a well known track record of trying to max out coins. Or are you saying you don't? This is a perfect example, couldn't be any more plain. >>
Eric, what are you talking about. Looks like your in the wrong thread.
TBT
2............some members are constantly helpful and rarely cause waves here.
3............some members are helpful to an extent but will "tie it up" if taunted enough.
4............some members admit mistakes and move on with things.
5............some members will fight to exhaustion to prove a point.
..............many members avoid types 1 and 5 no matter how knowledgeable they are, interacting with them just isn't worth it.
al h.
Bryan's a liar?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
buncha rag,rag,rag,side taking,placing others integrity on the line in a wanton way..
sh*thappens for JHC sakes..
<< <i>Sometimes I just don't get it. >>
Finally, you are right. The interested customer didn't see the coin until it had already gone to NCS and was placed in the NGC 66* holder. Then he was interested in the coin, though he insisted it be delivered in a PCGS MS-65 holder. Are you starting to get it now?
how nice of you to point out what was calmly explained in the other thread about eight hours ago. sometimes we read what we want to see, i was wondering if i was the only one who saw that.
al h.
coin was made by Russ as a PCGS MS65 and purchased by TBT.
coin was cracked out and sent to NCS to remove some film and dark flakes on the obverse.
came back NGC MS66*.
customer wanted coin in a PCGS holder, it was cracked and came back as an MS64.
..........troubling discussion had already started around reply number 36.
thread headed south quickly.
GSAguy spawned thread arrived.
fun continued!!!!!
al h.
<< <i>coin was made by Russ as a PCGS MS65 and purchased by TBT. >>
A slight correction here.... Russ had it at auction, another buyer won it. This buyer put it up at auction.
correction noted. bottom line is that TBT purchased it as an already holdered MS65 to begin this wonderful discussion. this is the most fun we've had with a Morgan since "Anna" traded hands. why these coins can evoke such passionate threads is beyond me.
al h.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>5............some members will fight to exhaustion to prove a point. >>
and we all know who these people are.
<< <i>many members avoid types 1 and 5 no matter how knowledgeable they are, interacting with them just isn't worth it. >>
I have GOT to keep telling this to myself.
peacockcoins
Myself, I never expect a dealer to sell me a coin for less than he bought it. As a quid pro quo I expect to not be ripped off by being charged more than $500 to $1000 profit on high end coins. Once I learn (which is easy to do through a little auction research) that I have paid a huge premium I become very cautious in dealing with that dealer in the future.
I got no complaints and would buy from them again.
Tbig
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!