Why the WIWAG deal doesn't bother me.
Buckwheat
Posts: 644 ✭
There has been quite a bit of discussion recently on this topic, on this board some, and particularly on the SGC board. BOTN is on a crusade and thinks that the sky is falling for PSA, and all PSA card holders shoould be quaking in their boots. But most of the PSA crowd doesn't seem to care. Many wish they had more info from PSA (as do I), but it hasn't seemed to effect card prices or demand. I think the reason is not that the rest of us have our heads buried in the sand, but rather the fake cards effect on the market is so minimal that it really doesn't matter.
No one knows, or is saying publically, the number of fake cards that WIWAG dumped on the market. Many have said that a lot of these were modern cards. Some have said that the number is tens of thousands. That certainly seems high to me, but let us assume for the sake of discussion that the number is that, and that of those, the number of Vintage cards is 10,000. Now of the 6 million plus cards that PSA has graded, I think it is safe to say that at least 2 million of them are vintage cards. If there are 10,000 WIWAG vintage cards still out there, which I believe is well above the actual number, then that means that about 1 of every 200 cards is a WIWAG card. With my 3000 cards, I should have at least 15 WIWAG cards. I certainly don't believe this to be the case, but we will assume so for the sake of argument.
Now they didn't put PSA 4 cards into PSA 8 labels, so they either put a grade or two lower, or perhaps an altered card in there. If either is the case, then if I sent it into PSA, they would probably make good on it, so I haven't lost anything if I try to sell it, and it turns out to be a fake. Even if they didn't, I still have a fairly nice looking card. Let's say that it is worth 1/3 of what I paid for it, if I didn't try to get PSA to make good.
Now I also know that if I sent my PSA 8 cards in to be regraded, at 10-25% would come back PSA 7 or possibly even lower. Every time that happened, I would lose 1/2 to 2/3 of the cards value. So for every WIWAG card I could possible have, I have probably 20-50 cards that are "overgraded". For those of you who think that a 20% grading differential is horrible, I would think that if you could send a card in and 80% of the time get the same grade, then that is a very reliable service. There is a lot of subjectivity on grading. I would bet that the consistency for any grading company is probably in the 75% range. So I could have as many as 750 "misgraded" cards.
When looked at it this way, if I buy a card on Ebay, the chance that I will get a Wiwag card is 20-50 times less than the chance I will get a misgraded card, regardless of the grading company. And that is actually only true for cards not recently graded. The majority of Ebay cards are fresh graded, so the odds of a misgrade are even higher relative to a WIWAG card.
It has been my experience that when I buy PSA graded cards, I am getting what I pay for. I might get some low end 9's that could get an 8 on regrade to be a high end 8, etc. but it still is a whole lot better than getting a "5" card called "mint" buy a raw seller. And the chances of getting a trimmed card, the numbers of which far outweigh the number of WIWAG cards, is very small. (I know it is not zero Greg, but it is still small. And I find that PSA's grades are as good as any other grader, and the PSA cards will command higher prices than other cards as a general rule, and are much more liquid.
That is why I continue to buy predominately PSA cards. The only others I buy are bought with an eye to crossing over to PSA. I much prefer to have all of my cards in the same holder, and I like to be able to put them on the registry. So people can argue all they like about the WIWAG affair, but the truth is, it amounts to a blip on the radar screen.
No one knows, or is saying publically, the number of fake cards that WIWAG dumped on the market. Many have said that a lot of these were modern cards. Some have said that the number is tens of thousands. That certainly seems high to me, but let us assume for the sake of discussion that the number is that, and that of those, the number of Vintage cards is 10,000. Now of the 6 million plus cards that PSA has graded, I think it is safe to say that at least 2 million of them are vintage cards. If there are 10,000 WIWAG vintage cards still out there, which I believe is well above the actual number, then that means that about 1 of every 200 cards is a WIWAG card. With my 3000 cards, I should have at least 15 WIWAG cards. I certainly don't believe this to be the case, but we will assume so for the sake of argument.
Now they didn't put PSA 4 cards into PSA 8 labels, so they either put a grade or two lower, or perhaps an altered card in there. If either is the case, then if I sent it into PSA, they would probably make good on it, so I haven't lost anything if I try to sell it, and it turns out to be a fake. Even if they didn't, I still have a fairly nice looking card. Let's say that it is worth 1/3 of what I paid for it, if I didn't try to get PSA to make good.
Now I also know that if I sent my PSA 8 cards in to be regraded, at 10-25% would come back PSA 7 or possibly even lower. Every time that happened, I would lose 1/2 to 2/3 of the cards value. So for every WIWAG card I could possible have, I have probably 20-50 cards that are "overgraded". For those of you who think that a 20% grading differential is horrible, I would think that if you could send a card in and 80% of the time get the same grade, then that is a very reliable service. There is a lot of subjectivity on grading. I would bet that the consistency for any grading company is probably in the 75% range. So I could have as many as 750 "misgraded" cards.
When looked at it this way, if I buy a card on Ebay, the chance that I will get a Wiwag card is 20-50 times less than the chance I will get a misgraded card, regardless of the grading company. And that is actually only true for cards not recently graded. The majority of Ebay cards are fresh graded, so the odds of a misgrade are even higher relative to a WIWAG card.
It has been my experience that when I buy PSA graded cards, I am getting what I pay for. I might get some low end 9's that could get an 8 on regrade to be a high end 8, etc. but it still is a whole lot better than getting a "5" card called "mint" buy a raw seller. And the chances of getting a trimmed card, the numbers of which far outweigh the number of WIWAG cards, is very small. (I know it is not zero Greg, but it is still small. And I find that PSA's grades are as good as any other grader, and the PSA cards will command higher prices than other cards as a general rule, and are much more liquid.
That is why I continue to buy predominately PSA cards. The only others I buy are bought with an eye to crossing over to PSA. I much prefer to have all of my cards in the same holder, and I like to be able to put them on the registry. So people can argue all they like about the WIWAG affair, but the truth is, it amounts to a blip on the radar screen.
Ole Doctor Buck of the Popes of Hell
0
Comments
I'm curious about the situation as well, but feel very confident in all the cards I have are properly graded, if anything I feel I have many 7's that reside in PSA-6 holders and lock 8's that are in 7 holders. A word to the wise on any card buyer be it raw or graded, and if graded any company, not just PSA. Study the card, and see if it meets your approval of what the grade should be. I get cards in all the time from a myriad of sources and I always look at them (i don't find it taxing, I rather enjoy it) to make sure they are what they should be. Its just common sense...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
What was it P.T. Barnum said, something about one born every minute?
how many fake rolex watches are out there? i dont see rolex going bankrupt.
the holder is safe enough ...as safe as a car with lowjack , number lock, and special tatinium lock with satelite etc ...no matter what people will find a way to break into it and steal it .
the monetery part of this hobby its very important but it should not be the driving force...the money that a person has into cards should be discretionary income ..to consider cards as part of your retirement fund its not wise and it will take away from the fun.
some people will always complain about the cost of graded cards, and the inconsistencies and subjective nature of card grading and this and that ...these kind folk should stick to collecting raw. the game its the way it is ...play it and just dont.
if 1/2 points scares you then collect PSA 10's.
Groucho Marx
It sounds like the reason you aren't concerned about WIWAG putting lower-grade cards into higher-grade holders is that you think PSA does this anyway. Is that what you're saying, that the inherent subjectivity of grading makes it so that you don't worry about having cards fraudulently inserted into PSA holders, because you've already got 25% of your cards mis-graded by PSA?
Maybe it's just me who finds that logic - "Fake cards aren't really damaging the market more than the market's already been damaged by mis-grading" - strange. It hardly sounds like a ringing endorsement of PSA, at any rate.
Please feel free to correct my admittedly groggy reading of your message.
No disrespect or sarcasm intended,
Un
Good questions, and very reasonable.
But I am not criticizing graded cards or PSA. The nature of card grading is such that it is very subjective. How much background snow makes an 8 a 7?? Or how much print marks to get a PD, or a lower grade. When anyone crosses over cards, or even when they crack out and resubmit, at least 25% of the cards get a different grade.
Now this is not the fault of the grading company. It is inherent in the process. It is similar to grading gymnastics or ice skating or diving contests. Even if you don't consider the politics involved, never do the judges all have the same score. And they have "objective" critieria to use also. But you rarely see someone get a 6.5, while another judge gives a 3.5. It will be 5.5 vs. 6.0, etc. A reproducibility rate on card grading of 80% I would think would be quite good. If you want to try it out, just take 20 cards randomly and resubmit, and see how many get the identical grade. 16 of 20 would be pretty high in my opinion. But even if it was 18/20, that is still a 10% variation.
Or those of you who believe that you are pretty good at grading, tell us how many cards on your last submission got exactly the grade you expected?
So the reason that "fake cards aren't damaging the market" is because the number is so small, even if it is 10,000, compared to random variability in grading. Buying a graded card sight unseen, my risk is much greater of a getting an overgraded card than a fraudulent card. That is why it is important to look at the card personally if you want to be absolutely sure you will be happy with it. Since that is rarely possible on the internet or at auctions, buying PSA graded cards is much safer than buying raw, and they will command a premium.
I am glad that PSA found the problem, arrested the perpetrators, and have made arrangements for reimbursements for all fraudulent cards they are presented. In my mind, it is a very minor event that doesn't affect the value of my cards. For proof of that, look at prices now and before. There has not been a drop in value as a result of the Wiwag affair.
Although I agree, in general, with what you have to say, there is one thing that bothers me about the issue: PSA's silence on the issue. When the news first broke, PSA posted general information on the website, and Joe Orlando responded on the message boards to the posts. He stated that, because of the pendency of the criminal case, he was not at liberty to go into the details. Once the case was over, PSA never, to my knowledge, made a public explanation of what happened. Usually, when someone goes off on a rumor rant, Joe eventually responds with the facts and puts the rumors to bed (at least for neutral observers). On this issue, nothing has been said by PSA. As a result, the rumors continue to fester.
Recently, there was another thread about some auctions where it was alleged that someone had created false PSA flips and was auctioning the cards on eBay as the real deal. Obviously, if PSA were taking action with respect to that person, it could not comment until the authorities had acted. However, there is no reason for silence as to the WIWAG affair since that case is closed.
I think PSA would be doing everyone a great service by disclosing the details regarding WIWAG. I realize that PSA may be in a tough bind. They may have to disclose that it is possible to open the PSA case and reseal it in a way that makes it very difficult to detect the tampering. Of course, the solution would be to develop a better holder, but then everyone complains because they don't want to pay to switch their existing PSA cards to a different holder.
PSA is the only grading company I submit to, and the only company whose graded cards I buy, and this is because I think they have the best product. All I wish is that PSA would publicly state the details. By not doing so, PSA simply lends credence to the "sky is falling" rumors posted by others.
John
In addition I personally wish to thank everyone on this thread, it is such an relief to have experienced collectors express there opinions in a courteus, informative manner. No personal attacks or demeaning comments, I am serious, this to me is why these boards exist...
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
If you look at the original press release by the Department of Justice, WIWAG Corporation, Slight and Kreider were charged and pled guilty to Mail Fraud.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=163858
Here is the official Federal Law on this crime:
http://www.usps.com/websites/depart/inspect/usc18/mailfr.htm
The victims of this crime were people who bought cards from WIWAG through the mail. It is the role of the FBI and Department of Justice to apprehend, arrest, and convict the people responsible for this criminal activity and make restitution for the victims of these acts.
The sentencing was probation with both defendants paying $3,000 each and the WIWAG Corporation paying $6,000. They also had to pay full damages to the victims and are still obligated to through 2005.
The biggest pile of nonsense being told on various Message Boards by people such as Matthew Natalie (VaYank) and Greg Schwartz (BOTN) is that CU was in control of the investigation and could do things such as accept a plea bargain, and end the investigation at their discretion. Both of these accusations are absolutely false. Again, CU was not the legal victim of the crime and had no control of the investigation, conviction and sentencing. I talked to the chief prosecutor about this case and she verified and confirmed my thoughts. Any person familiar with law enforcement knows this.
Knowing this, it was clear to me that Greg Schwartz (BOTN) was being less than truthful when posted a message on the SGC and Yahoo CLTC message boards allegedly claiming to have called and talked to FBI field investigators who were involved in the investigation. BOTN claims that one of the FBI investigators told him the following:
“I could have suggested to CU to keep it open for several more months but I had other cases to pursue and CU CERTAINLY did not want to prolong the investigation”
No competent or credible FBI investigator would have said such a thing. Again, CU had no control or say in the depth or scope of the investigation.
Here are some other misleading bits of information presented by BOTN:
“Although it may not be public record, the financial data of WIWAG and John and Craig would have been available to those close to the investigation, including CU.”
Again, CU would have as much business as either you or I in seeing these records.
Here’s another grossly erroneous statement made by BOTN:
“Sentencing in Federal cases is based solely on the victim’s losses. The larger the losses, the stiffer the punishment. According to the US Attorney’s office, the financial records of WIWAG were irrelevant in the case for purposes of sentencing. Financial records would have been part of a trial had their been one.”
This is false. The WIWAG duo would have not been given probation had they already been convicted felons. Clearly, there are more factors than just victim’s loses which account for the punishment.
Now more recently I just read from this wonderful source of misinformation that, and I quote, "A sealing machine was found and confiscated by CU."
Oh really? I guess CU just broke down the doors of WIWAG's office and walked away with what ever they wanted. Pretty amazing story.
So I guess Greg Schwartz is right. I, Dan Markel (Dude) is in a perpetual state of denial. I really am confused with BOTN's so called "facts".
On a related note, doesn't it seem odd that when SGC had a recent holder tampering incident that one of the SGC guys (srs1a) ended up obtaining the tampered-holdered SGC Bonds card from the seller. I'm truly stunned that the SGC management made no effort to obtain the card, and best to my knowledge, conduct a criminal investigation into this matter. Wow! Talk about ignoring a serious problem and burying your head in the sand. And these guys keep beating their bully pulpit for the way PSA handled the WIWAG thing. Unbelievable!
Thanks, Rob, for the well written post.
Dude has once again shown that as a collector and part time ebay seller, he has infinite more credibility than a certain full-time hobby dealer that hopes to avoid extra innings as evidenced by his moniker. Dude has been targeted by said dealer and one other impudent hobby dealer (who thinks his business compares to the precision of a certain German automobile) because Dude does his research, states facts and plays by the rules.
Kudos to you, Dan, for your honesty and determination.
For the record, I've never bought a card from BMW (or a car from BMW for that matter). I've only bought one card from BOTN (in 1999) and it's the most overgraded, ugly card in my entire collection. I can't wait to upgrade it.
Do you know what happened with the fake Psa slabs of seller 'startac23'? And I'm sure you know this
already but I disagree with your last paragraph.
WIWAG doesn't bother me either.
aconte
Anyhow, on the important things... congrats on your 1 ranking on the 67 set. I was checking it out
since you have a lot of scans. It is nice.
Dude, I appreciate your post. I am glad that you have done a lot of research. I know that BOTN has done a lot of research also. While my tendency is to believe that BOTN is just on a crusade, and is looking through very distorted glasses, I don't know this for a fact. My point is that even if what BOTN says is 100% true, it still doesn't make any diffference to my faith in my PSA cards.
Is there a WIWAG card in my collection? Perhaps, but I can't find it. Are there overgraded cards in my collection (in my opinion)--of course. Are there undergraded cards? Every one that I submitted myself is undergraded.
Jeremy
cheers,
minibeers
1963T Dodgers in 8s
Pre-war Brooklyn 5s or higher
FINALLY!!!!!!!!
A post that does not involve a pissing contest
Buckwheat,
Your analysis certainly seems to be the most intelligent statements that I have seen on this subject to date.Certainly tends to put things into perspective.
Dude,
I also appreciate all the effort that you have put into researching this thing.It is a shame that people have resorted to the attacking statements that have been hurled at you.
Lastly,Thanks again for a post that actually seems intelligent in content and absent of the idiotic attacks that are so prevalent these days.
Vic
I'm not saying he shouldn't post images of cards that are misgraded by PSA when he comes across them or to air his complaints about PSA. But I'd challenge him to spend equal time promoting the hobby and helping collectors with their questions.
I would have posted this on the SGC forum but I have to reset my security features every time because it won't let you post otherwise.
Steve
Machodoc -- Thank you my fellow Mountaineer for the kind words. It's weird to think that we probably passed each other probably a dozen times or rode up the same elevator in our dorm back in 1977 and 1978.
<< <i>The biggest pile of nonsense being told on various Message Boards by people such as Matthew Natalie (VaYank) and Greg Schwartz (BOTN) is that CU was in control of the investigation and could do things such as accept a plea bargain, and end the investigati >>
The point is not that PSA controlled the investigation. PSA was deeply involved with the terms of the plea bargain. How else could the review time frame for WIWAG cards be established? How else was the compensation for the review expenses be established without the involvement of PSA? The feds didn't go to PSA, and say you are ordered to review WIWAG cards for x days and you will be paid x dollars. It was negotiated and discussed and then agreed to.
I mean, if the industry "leader" goes to the feds and say how in god's name can you let these guys be able to deal in baseball cards after all this, you don't think it would have resulted in different outcome? If PSA had banged on pots and pans, if they publicly and loudly objected to the plea bargain as a miscarriage of justice, as not being appropriate to the crime, do you think the feds would have so easily and quickly gotten this off their plates?
If the industry "leader" tells the feds that there * might * be more crimes committed, and/or that it is vital that more facts be established to keep an entire industry from exisiting under a cloud, that no stone should be left unturned in detailing the exact depth of the fraud, that WIWAG be compelled to fully detail this depth as a condition of a plea bargain, you don't think a different outcome would have happened?
The answer is of course!
The fact is, the Feds could really care less about this case. Well, they do, but they don't. They may not say this, but they deal with far more "serious" crimes, and this is just cardboard being shifted around in plastic with a "9" on a label instead of a "8" I bet they feel they have (and had) better uses of their time.
Alexandria, Va
Vayank@aol.com
Building a SGC 1977 Topps Set.
Pay Pal Verified.
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
Joe
<< <i> Vayank- I hope you are getting paid handsomely for what you are doing. What you are saying is pure garbage and you know it.
>>
Koby,
I stand by my post 100%.
PSA wanted the lawbreaking to end, but didn't want the whole extent of the misdoing to be made public out of fear of what it would do to public confidence in PSA. Do you dispute that?
Alexandria, Va
Vayank@aol.com
Building a SGC 1977 Topps Set.
Pay Pal Verified.
<< <i>Right or wrong, lately I miss VaYanks updates on PSA's financial condition. >>
Well, the stock market is doing better in general. That should give you your answer.
Collector's Universe SEC Filing Link
On that same thought, why am I not surprised that your buddy, Greg "The Buffoon" Schwartz (BOTN) just wrote on the SGC Board that he is sticking to his story inspite of the glaring errors in his "facts". First the financial records were released, then later they weren't. Which is it? Then allegedly other crimes were uncovered before the final September 2003 sentencing, yet no additional charges were made.
I believe it can all be summed up by this: if everything that BOTN claims is true about the WIWAG investigation, then the F.B.I. and Department of Justice are just hapless puppet organizations under the strict control of Collectors Universe.
<< <i>
I believe it can all be summed up by this: if everything that BOTN claims is true about the WIWAG investigation, then the F.B.I. and Department of Justice are just hapless puppet organizations under the strict control of Collectors Universe. >>
Dude--BOTN must be right, because PSA RULES the world!
<< <i> VaYank -- I'm truly amazed at your persistance in sticking with your conspiracy theory. >>
I have not read the Board in a while, nonetheless, since I was referenced by name again, I'll point out that it is not a conspiracy theory, but rather common everyday corporate self-interest.
Once the immediate the immediate problem has been solved, PSA/CU wasn't about do anything that might open the hamper simply to find the truth. Problem solved. Protect the brand. Limit and then take the hit. Hum bug the rest. Move on. No "conspiracy."
Fact is, as noted in my post, PSA/CU certainly helped shape the terms of the plea bargain. A quick end, not a full telling of the truth, suited them just fine.
Alexandria, Va
Vayank@aol.com
Building a SGC 1977 Topps Set.
Pay Pal Verified.
<< <i>
<< <i> VaYank -- I'm truly amazed at your persistance in sticking with your conspiracy theory. >>
I have not read the Board in a while, nonetheless, since I was referenced by name again, I'll point out that it is not a conspiracy theory, but rather common everyday corporate self-interest.
Once the immediate the immediate problem has been solved, PSA/CU wasn't about do anything that might open the hamper simply to find the truth. Problem solved. Protect the brand. Limit and then take the hit. Hum bug the rest. Move on. No "conspiracy."
Fact is, as noted in my post, PSA/CU certainly helped shape the terms of the plea bargain. A quick end, not a full telling of the truth, suited them just fine. >>
Mathew,
Why after a month, do you bring this topic up again? Are you just looking for trouble?
BTW -- Was Joe's thread removed?
I believe that Joe's thread was removed. Is it just me or does anyone else feel like they have "Big Brother" watching over all of the posts just to make sure you don't saying anything against the rulers of the board.
I was always very much pro psa but I am getting so tired of Joe dodging the hard questions, removing folks from the board who question him, and removing threads that address the important issues. I know that Joe reads these boards and if he can't comment on a certain subject (WIWAG) then just say "I can't comment". I have read a lot of very good management books and nowhere does it say to sweep the difficult topics under the rug. I never complain about things taking too long with cards being graded, I don't complain about my grades, I have never been upset about which special is running or not running, I could care less about receiving free grades when I hit 75% on a set, but this really bothers me. I am very much "pro psa" but I am also very much angered by management not addressing direct questions. I think Vargha and the rest of us deserve either answers or at least some kind of response saying that you're not going to respond.
I'll get off my soapbox now. I only get on it about once a year.
Wayne
Wayne,
I think that you should get on your soapbox more often and stay longer.Your post speaks volumes and reflects the way many of us feel.I think that a soapbox becomes you!!
Vic
PS,
I have yet to call Joe as he invited me to do but it is definately on my short list of things to do in the very near future.Anyone needing a hard question put forth to Joe,Please PM me and I will submit their question to Joe.
Vic
Used to working on HOF SS Baseballs--Now just '67 Sox Stickers and anything Boston related.
As others have mentioned, the past is done. What has PSA done to make their holder more secure?? Can another WIWAG occur? With the WIWAG scandal, other FLIP switching rumors and card switching, you would think that PSA would have a perfect excuse now to redesign their holder.
In order to protect their image, you would think PSA would publicly go after anyone that would try and misrepresent their product. What's the worse that can happen ... a plea bargain?! Not much of a deterrent for the risk/reward factor. Heck all it would take is a couple big scores on a few PSA 7s to PSA 8s.
So let's make the question simple to Joe. What is PSA doing to prevent future fraud and make the PSA holder more secure?????
Is it because are voice/opinion does not count ... after all, we are just members of the 1% club - right?! Maybe the same people that do the SMR pricing are working on it?
<< <i>So let's make the question simple to Joe. What is PSA doing to prevent future fraud and make the PSA holder more secure????? >>
Uhhhh, I believe I posted a new thread on this a few days ago, concerning making holders that disintegrate when cracked -- But I never got a reply from PSA.
Scott
In addition, I sent a warning out weeks ago regarding baseless rumor - the kind intended to harm PSA. I just read a response where the person claims to have "inside knowledge" about cost-cutting in regards to the quality of our holders, etc. Where do some of you guys get this garbage?
Joe -- Was your comment directed at me? Because I realize that I misspoke on my original post. However, here are the "facts" as I understand them:
The elimination of the hologram on the back of the holder resulted in substantial (six-figure) savings to PSA.
The holders were manufactured in one place. However the back (male) side of the holder was sent out to be stamped with a hologram. It was then returned to PSA for assembly. The only way that someone could have a completed, empty holder was to steal it from inside of PSA .
After the hologram was removed from the process, a completed holder could be obtained (again by theft) directly from the manufacturer.
Additionally, it is my understanding that on at least one occasion (post-hologram), storage became so cramped at PSA that pallet(s) of holders were left unattended in the parking lot.
Any one of these things, much more so all of them, could lead to the kind of security breach whereby an unscrupulous dealer (WIWAG?) could have access to complete PSA holders. Simply removing the flip from legitimately graded PSA cards, coupled with complete, unused holders would then allow lesser cards to be substituted into the new holder.
I am not a PSA-basher. I have built a handful of high-grade PSA sets that are on the Set Registry. I don't even own any cards in other holders. However, I would appreciate your forthright answers as to the validity of these claims. Since they are circulating in the community at large, they are not new as of my posting. If they are false, I would love an official denunciation of them. If they are true, I would love an official answer as to how PSA is dealing with the issue(s).
Thanks for your response in advance.
To everyone on the boards, if I am removed for this, so be it. You can always reach me by e-mail.
David
Here is mine: How can I spot an altered holder? I have received cloudy holders from my own submissions so I know that cannot be the only thing to look for.
<< <i>Anyone needing a hard question put forth to Joe,Please PM me and I will submit their question to Joe.
Here is mine: How can I spot an altered holder? I have received cloudy holders from my own submissions so I know that cannot be the only thing to look for. >>
Neal: I think this is the million dollar question. I would like to know as well. You would think that, given WIWAG, and the new and improved holder, that we, as stakeholders, would have a much better avenue for educating ourselves as to how to detect tampered/altered holders. I just had a board member contact me privately yesterday on a $1,000+ purchase he made -- asking my opinions as to whether or not the holder was potentially altered. Without any basis for knowledge from PSA -- how am I to answer? I can judge a card (in person much better than otherwise), but it is very problematic.