Prussian 20 Mark Pattern Proof

cacheman · November 3, 2003 5:16AM

I was finally able to capture the copper lustre on the devices. This piece is about the size of a nickel.

cosmicdebris · November 3, 2003 5:23AM

Another great piece. No cameo at all on it?

cacheman · November 3, 2003 5:28AM

It's all cameo but as we both know, the mirrored fields just don't show properly. By God, I'll get it figured out someday though....

cosmicdebris · November 3, 2003 5:31AM

This was a real tough one to get it right:

spoon · November 3, 2003 5:35AM

And what's the reason we can't have such nice designs on US coins??

BTW- the "G" on reverse is for Goetz, right? not Karlsruhe?
Where were these minted again?

cacheman · November 3, 2003 11:38PM

Yes Spoon, the "G" is for Goetz since he was the person who reverse engraved the dies and then struck them. I am not sure who/how it was done, perhaps a private mint, but I'll check into it because now you have me curious. S

newbiecollector · November 3, 2003 11:42PM

Another great one C-man. I have now drooled all ovey my keyboard...... First class medal and photos.

nwcs · November 4, 2003 12:50AM

EXCELLENT copper image! Wow!

JohnZ · November 4, 2003 12:56AM

I envy you your picture-taking virtuosity, cacheman. I also envy cosmic and darkhorse.

Hell, I'm just an envious guy.

cacheman · November 4, 2003 2:19AM

Spoon - I asked the question about minting to a fellow Goetz collector and this was his response:

"Re: the minter of the 1913 patterns. This is an interesting question which I'm sure we could get answered if I could read more German. Of course the engravers, like Goetz, would submit their dies - probably in an unhardened state for consideration. After the judging process those dies not selected would revert back to the artists. I cannot say for sure where Goetz had them struck after that. There were plenty of private firms capable of minting them. But this cost money which Goetz was loth to part with. Onr thing for sure if they had been struck at the Bavarian mint there would be an edgemark. I think the D mintmark which appears on many of Goetz' later patterns were just 'mock-up' mintmarks which Goetz had cut in to the dies himself. I sometimes think that the plain edge 36mm struck reductions of his casts you sometimes come across are also products of private striking. I used to think that Goetz may have had a small press capable of striking these but I no longer believe this. It is a real mysery which can probably be solved by re-searching what the common practice was. Some few larger silver struck medals Goetz had done at Poellath. The large 60mm I have been listing is edgemarked by Poellath. Maybe this is where he had other work done. keep in mind that most of these patterns are Proof struck. This takes some pretty powerful equipment and a highly trained technician to successfully produce proofs in any quantity. Do you have a copy of Schaaf's book on German Pattern coinage? It has some pretty detailed intro chapters which I have yet to attempt to translate. Maybe in there we may find some answers. My best short answer is that Goetz probably took his dies under his arm and brought them to one of the many private firms in Munich-Augsburg area for them to produce. Sorry I can't be more helpful on this important point."

Like most of Goetz's life, it is an enigma.

oldshep · November 4, 2003 2:47AM

I wanted to add a reply, but I just don't have the words - what a beauty!! Great photography Scott.
Yours and Bill's posts are always worth a look not only because of the great subject matter but also because of both of your great photos. Keep it up.
Shep

Askari · November 8, 2003 7:19AM

Excellent shots!!

SYRACUSIAN · November 8, 2003 7:36AM

Great pictures (and perfect fields) !

<< <i>The piece is about the size of a nickel >>

Actually,I'd guess ,that as a pattern of a German gold 20 marks ,it should be around one mm bigger than the nickel.
By coincidence,the US nickel has the exact same diameter as the Latin Union 20 fr gold;the German 20 is almost like a sovereign I think.

spoon · November 8, 2003 7:51AM

Cacheman, sorry for the late reply.. but thanks for the mint info

I've always been interested in this sorta thing.. the politics of designing coins. I'll see if I can dig out any more info on these Goetz patterns from my German contacts.

cacheman · November 8, 2003 2:55PM

"Actually,I'd guess ,that as a pattern of a German gold 20 marks ,it should be around one mm bigger than the nickel."

Geez, I'll be sure to pull my calipers out next time...sorry if I confused anyone

SYRACUSIAN · November 8, 2003 4:33PM

I didn't mean to make silly remarks: it's just that the (Whitman) nickel holders come very handy for the LU 20s. I wish I'd find something similar for sovereigns and German 20s.But then again I don't think I have German 20s ,nor do I intend to buy any

Prussian 20 Mark Pattern Proof

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