This is enough to make me quit....
MoneyLA
Posts: 1,825 ✭
This is enough to make me quit the hobby, and it is definitely enough to make me stop sending submissions in to PCGS:
I just was emailed that my grades were ready on the 1955-D Wahingtons that I sent in. You might recall from a prior post that I obtained a bank-wrapped roll. I chose seven of the best coins, including one end of roll coin with obverse toning.
The grades were mediocre -- mostly 64's. That alone was enough of a blow.
But the biggest problem came with the end of roll coin -- it was body bagged for its color.
I have called PCGS to protest, and explained these coins were from an original roll and there was NOTHING artificial about that end of roll quarter.
I was told by a manager that the shipment would be stopped and the coin would get another look.
This is a shame. Will keep you posted, but I've had it.
This business has lost credibility. I'm going to find something else to spend my time and money on.
cheers, alan mendelson
I just was emailed that my grades were ready on the 1955-D Wahingtons that I sent in. You might recall from a prior post that I obtained a bank-wrapped roll. I chose seven of the best coins, including one end of roll coin with obverse toning.
The grades were mediocre -- mostly 64's. That alone was enough of a blow.
But the biggest problem came with the end of roll coin -- it was body bagged for its color.
I have called PCGS to protest, and explained these coins were from an original roll and there was NOTHING artificial about that end of roll quarter.
I was told by a manager that the shipment would be stopped and the coin would get another look.
This is a shame. Will keep you posted, but I've had it.
This business has lost credibility. I'm going to find something else to spend my time and money on.
cheers, alan mendelson
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Comments
Don't do that. Keep fighting.
Cheers,
Edson
Don't rush to judgment too quickly. I was considering buying a roll of '55-D quarters about 20-25 years ago, and worked in a shop where I saw many rolls of them. I never found a roll that I liked well enough to buy, because they have to be the worst looking Washington the Denver mint ever produced. The strike is almost always mushy, and they're plagued with milky white spots, even though the luster is sometimes decent. If your roll is typical, or even a bit better, you'd be lucky to get more than a few MS65's out of it.
Jim
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
The seeming inability of the grading services to distinguish natural toning from AT is enough to keep me from paying a premium for virtually any coin. I've similar experiences with copper coins that appeared to be perfectly OK to me, but came back BB'd as altered surfaces. I've got a few more at PCGS now, and if they're BB'd I'll think twice or get another opinion before submitting them.
Good luck on the toned coin. It'll be interesting to see how your appeal turns out.
Jim
Alan - you are fishing for Marlin with the 55(d) quarters - you just won't catch a big one every day. But, if you wanted high grades, you would have been tuna fishing with say 1947(s). If you come out to the high seas for Marlin, expect to come home without dinner a few nights
Wondercoin
I think PCGS is getting to the point of worrying about the prices being paid for toned coins that it is easier to BB for NT than to give the grade for AT, even when it is correct. Look at the people getting coins BB'd while still in the mint packaging.
It will be interesting to hear what they have to say about this. The last time they were going to stop a shipment to check a coin for me, it didn't happen and I had to send it back in. What a waste of money that was.
J&J Coins
website
Wild Ebay Toners for sale
The big O
We will all have to go out and collect match book covers.
Camelot
When you get the coins back can you post a pic of the '55-D endroll. Regardless of whether it was actually NT or not, it can be very educational to look at the coin and understand for the future why it was not slabbed.
As has been discussed and debated in numerous posts, there are a number of telltale indications of NT and AT. If a coin has the indicators, then results go from there, regardless of what actually happened, and if in the end one isn't sure if it is AT ot not, it will likely be tagged AT, or using the common grading service term "questionable toning". Since you pulled your coin out of an original bakwrapped roll, it probably was NT, and for some reason had the wrong indicators, which may include having toning significantly different than is commonly found for that date.
For example. I collect MS Franklins, an generally know what type of toning is commonly found for Franklins, and for particular dates. If I see a Franklin that is toned in a way that is not commonly found for the date, and not even common for Franklins in general, and it has an AT indicator or two (even though it may actually be NT), I go with the saying, "when in doubt, cross it out").
In addition, something else that confuses people is when a coin has both NT (e.g., predominately NT) and some AT. Again, your coin is probably NT, but if it looked like it had AT in addition to NT, it will be BBd. I recently had someone show me a toned MS Franklin. They were wondering if it was AT. First the toning did not look completely "right". I told then that I suspected the coin was basically NT, but that it had some AT as well. This type of toning can be very confusing because so much of it looks right, but them there is the other part that looks so wrong. And why would someone AT and NT. Well there hope is to make it look better and/or cover up at least "tone down" a problem area.
Well, I've rambled way past the original point long enough.
I should add that I have had at least two submissions last month with a five beautifully toned coins, two (of which were so pretty that several dealers (I didn't show the dealers three of them) at the ANA show passed on them because they thought they were AT. The coins were all in NGC holders. I submitted them for crossoever at the ANA show, and they all crossed (and at the same same grade, except a Franklin also FBLd). The two coins the dealers saw were a '39-D Jefferson with stunning (too go to be true) rainbow-type toning, and a beautiful, tab toned '36 Rhode Island. The point is, even though the services may be a bit sensitive on toned coins, it doesn't mean that they are afraid to slab toned coins, even those that are almost "too good to be true". Again all five of these crossed in two different submisssions.
I should add that I did have two other toned NGC coins that did not cross. These coins are clearly not AT, and I am virtually certain one did did not cross because the pheriphery was too dark (I've had that coin in an NGC holder for 10+ years). The other coin, an endroll Franklin, also did not cross because the toning was too dark (I showed the latter to HRH just before submitting it; he said it probably would not cross because it was a bit too dark- he was right.)
Frank
I've made a few ms65s and these were pulled from Mint sets.......
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
>>1...Listening to people lie to me. It happens every day...after all these years, I'm used to it and I understand that it happens, but it really is a waste of time.
This post was edited since last week, the original post gave the "Lies" that Mr Hall hears, among the top was; "It came from an original roll." Honestly I found it quite offensive that he thinks that not only that I am a liar, but so are you and anyone else that goes through "rolls" and admits to it. I posted this to make you aware of the uphill climb you have in convincing PCGS you are not actually lying.
Good Luck,
Brian
(cheers) alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>First, let me thank all of you for your sympathy. But now: insult added to my injury. Tonight I received an email about the frosted 1960 washington proofs that I submitted about a week ago. I was expecting dcam or at least cam for all four of the coins. The grades? NOT one cam or dcam... all were graded pr65 or pr66. That's it. FINISHED. DONE. NO MORE.
(cheers) alan mendelson >>
How could they possibly miss a cam designation? Of all the proof coins I've seen/purchased frosting was always designated at least cameo. I know you don't have the coins back yet, but do you have any photos/scans of the coins?
I struggled early with Franklins.... and I learned what PCGs was looking for, and Now I do okay....... There are certian characteristics they sek in a dcam, such as strong and deep mirrors and a fully frosted Eagle on the Washie.......
Maybe you don't want to give up yet.... compare your coins to already graded examples.... maybe you missed something?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
learn your grading and PCGS, the best advice I could give. BTW advice is only worth what you pay for it.
brian
<< <i>Lucy is right, You can't send in coins that you think are a certain grade you have to send in coins that PCGS thinks are a certain grade. With Lincoln's I can grade my way and PCGS's way. The two methods are different and its all a matter of taste. PCGS loves clean fields, slighlty toned (orange/red) - peach fuzz, and matte/satin like luster, not mint bright and mirror fields on Lincoln's. I like mirror fields, technically perfect coins and don't give a to much care for luster if the coin is "bright and shinny". My preference for coins gets the 66RD from PCGS while coins I would normally think were inferior to my tastes garner the coveted 67RD.
learn your grading and PCGS, the best advice I could give. BTW advice is only worth what you pay for it.
brian >>
Alan reread what clackamas just wrote, its some of the best advice I seen written on here. Every grading company has the "things" that they look for in each series that they grade. You have to learn what PCGS looks for. Another thing you might do is submit some of the the coins you think are undergraded to NGC and if they agree with PCGS on the grades, then you will find out its an issue of learning to grade better.
After several decades of collecting coins, and after putting together and then selling what used to be the #1 PCGS proof Washington Registry set (now #4 in the all time finest list) -- if I can NO LONGER accurately grade coins I have NO business collecting coins anymore.
Maybe it's my eyes, my age, or changes in standards.
Thanks, but "I'm outta here."
When a collector misjudges as much as I have lately (or has been misjudged) then he has no business putting time and money into the effort. As I say in my financial news reports, "you don't want to throw good money after bad."
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Alan: As I continue my quest to slab an MS67 55(d) quarter, which has now persisted for the better part of a decade unsuccessfully and has cost me hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars, may I reference in the future this was the Wash Quarter date that made MoneyLA "throw in the towel" to his 30 year collecting hobby and "makes grown men cry"?
Wondercoin
I feel your pain! I have a '38-D Buffalo that I have owned since
1966, end-toned from an original roll that has BB on 3 occasions.
I am a Franklin specialist, and my last couple submissions have me
nuts! PCGS has no clue on how to grade 1949-S Prooflikes; I own 2 in
64-FBL holders, and I expected at LEAST a 65 on the one void of marks
and w/a spectacular strike. Since 'Monty left, grading is all over the
place and if Franklins weren't dead (price-wise) right now, I'd sell
ALL of them, and this is coming from a 35-year collector.
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
I just checked my invoice report again for the 55-D's ... and the body bagged toned coin has now been graded MS64.
There is justice in the world.
cheers, alan mendelson
ps Im back into the hobby. (But Mitch, we are still meeting per our previous conversations.)
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
Wow - smooth move by PCGS to keep you in the game. Could this be the start of a magnificent winning streak in the submission game? Only 1 way to find out!
Wondercoin
I didn't really think you'd be able to give up coins. If you're like most of us here, you're addicted to them, and only blindness, death, or financial problems will keep you from enjoying them.
Jim
I know exactly how you feel. I spent the last six months searching thousands of coins from 1965 -1967 that came from a old collection of original rolls, only to have the vast majority designated as SMS coins.
Most of these coins graded MS64 SMS. We are not talking about trying to slide a MS67 SMS quarter in as a non-SMS.
I was already ready to stop grading coins when I read Mr Hall's coment about the lie "came from a original roll". Insult to injury is exactly what I felt. After 10 years of grading coins and spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours just trying to make a decent MS65 NON-SMS coin I get back a bunch of worthless SMS MS64 coins and then get called a lier.
Ya, that is what I call a fun hobby.
Tom
It really wouldn't have been the same without you.
I told Alan i would post (MY) opinion on these two examples, the white one could of easily on a different day went into a 65 holder, albeit a lower end.
Mitch said it all concerning the characteristics of the 55D's.
The endroll toned one, should be in a 65 holder.
I can honestly say i have seen lesser coins in higher graded Pcgs.
Alan, stick with us!
Dave
a. worth the gamble to send in additional coins knowing that the coins I viewed as "the best" were only given MS64's?
or
b. submit the MS64's for regrade?
Frankly, if they come back MS64 they are not worth the submission costs. So I guess that means Im left with some raw 55-D's.
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
While the major grading services sometimes no-grade coins out of original rolls, mint sets, proof sets, etc., they are often in a no-win situation.
They are supposed to grade coins, without knowing whose they are or where they came from. Yes, I know there are inevitable exceptions.
So, you might have a coin which you KNOW is original, but the grading service does not have all of the information that you do, upon which to render an opinion. Nor should they.
I don't think it would be fair to some submitters if others were allowed to lobby for getting a coin graded, by giving details of the history of a given coin or collection, in order to have it certified, when it would otherwise not have been. The playing field SHOULD be even, though it is not always so.
With the grading companies hypothetically grading coins in a vacuum, it means that some AT coins will get holdered and some original coins will get body-bagged - there is no practical and equitable way around those facts of life.
When a consumer, like I am, pays $30 per coin plus shipping to have coins graded, I expect to get a professiona and EXPERT job. I am not paying for a professional to body bag a coin simply because he has "doubts" -- he should research and reach a professional opinion. It is clear that the toned coin was bodybagged in ERROR but luckily I got the service to reverse itself without the need for additional grading or shipping charges. I was lucky.
When you go to an appraiser, you want an accurate and professional opinion. When you go to a doctor, you want an accurate and professional diagnosis and treatment. Well darn it, when you pay your $30 to PCGS you want to get what you paid for.
Several years ago I raised the issue that PCGS was appearing to be monopolistic -- it controlled (effectively) the grading environment, the pricing of coins and it was a giant retailer and wholesaler of coins--- this the result of all the divisions of CU and its price guides and auctions.
To think that such a giant can effectively ruin independents (such as me and other collectors) with its clout and control of the market and WRONG opinions smacks of the need for FTC intervention. Comments??
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
Alan: When you go to Las Vegas, do you expect the professional card dealer to deal you a perfect "21" each hand (even when you beg her to)? I have said it before, submitting coins is a big poker or blackjack game - a "sport", if you will. Think of it as a "sport" or a game and I suspect you will do fine. When you think of it as a "science" , like the medical field you compare it to, then the game is not for you. If you don't like "games", then simply buy your coins already slabbed and leave the "gambling" to those with a better disposition towards the "thrill of victory" and "the agony of defeat".
Wondercoin
I concede that grading is an art more than a science, but even in art there are certain standards that the consumer expects. For example, in art, when you buy a handsigned lithograph you expect the signature to be authentic, and when you buy a Calder you expect it to be a Calder and not a counterfeit.
Grading should not be a roll of the dice; it should be a professional report because this is what all grading services hold themselves out to perform -- a professional grading report.
Like you and many others, I recognize PCGS to be the best and I value their authority, and when the "best" makes mistakes, the system that allows the mistakes should be fixed.
In this case, we are talking about what appears to be unwarranted body-bagging because of the uncertainty of the source of certain coin toning.
If PCGS can't give an honest appraisal of a toned coin let me make this suggestion: they RETURN the grading fee.
Simply body-bagging a toned coin because they don't know how to grade toned coins, or are afraid of making a mistake on judging the toning, and pocketing the grading fee is WRONG. You're a lawyer Mitch -- does the phrase "arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable" apply to this "unable to grade" problem?
I might also suggest that professional graders, when found to have graded a coin incorrectly, might also refund either the original fee or the regrade fee. Otherwise, collectors will be paying for the grading service's mistakes.
Clearly PCGS is the market leader for the numismatic industry and they are also a market maker, and clearly the definitive creator of grades. With that lofty position comes a responsiblity to either get it right or admit that they can't and refund the customer's money.
And for the record, the only coins I want in my collection are PCGS slabbed coins because they do have the reputation for getting it right. But I just wish they would admit when they don't.
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
You know I retired from the practice of law way back in 6/02, so I leave your legal questions to the practicing attorneys out there.
Look - if you treat the grading of coins like you treat your trips to Vegas - you will be that much happier - that's all. And, you raise a good point about PCGS considering the possible return of grading fees on those "iffy" AT decisions. Sounds reasonable.
Wondercoin
By the way, I am open to accept other grading decisions at PCGS and accept their designations for other MS and PR coins. Even with my two last batches -- the proof 1960 washingtons and the 1955-d ms coins that were slabbed -- I accepted the grades given by PCGS and did not protest. I accept the differences of the grades they got and my grading expectations as a "difference of the art."
Bottom line: Ive submitted quite a few coins to PCGS over the last couple of years -- and some of them found their way into my registry sets, and some of them didn't make it. While I have disagreed , I accepted their final decision. But the toning issue needs some resolution.
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
"Mark: you wrote a long post of nonsense"
Alan, like it or not, my "nonsense" is an inevitable reality. I didn't say I like it, but I understand it. The purpose of my original post was to try to show what it's like from the other side.
"Think about it: you are paying a fee for a professional service, and the professionals blew it. Not only could they not recognize an originally, end of roll, naturally toned coin, but after Dave saw two of my coins, I now believe they couldnt recognize an MS64 from an MS65,"
The subjective nature of grading ensures that there will be blown calls. If PCGS gets it wrong to the tune of only 5% of the time (and I think that would be exceptional), that will still be more than 1000 (perhaps more than 2000) coins every month, which are graded incorrectly. Without having seen the coins in question, I wont comment on them, except to say that PCGS and NGC can "recognize an MS64 from an MS65" far better than most individuals.
"When a consumer, like I am, pays $30 per coin plus shipping to have coins graded, I expect to get a professiona and EXPERT job. I am not paying for a professional to body bag a coin simply because he has "doubts" -- he should research and reach a professional opinion."
I think that is a fair expectation on your part. It is usually impractical, if not impossible, to do research which would lead to a more professional opinion, however.
"When you go to an appraiser, you want an accurate and professional opinion. When you go to a doctor, you want an accurate and professional diagnosis and treatment. Well darn it, when you pay your $30 to PCGS you want to get what you paid for."
Appraisers aren't held to the same standard of precision that we want from professional graders. And, at least some of the diagnoses that doctors perform are less subjective in nature than grading is. I agree, wholeheartedly about wanting to get what you pay for.
"To think that such a giant can effectively ruin independents (such as me and other collectors) with its clout and control of the market and WRONG opinions smacks of the need for FTC intervention. Comments??"
They have only as much power as we give them. If you have a coin which you "know" is an MS65 and they grade it MS62, if you sell it for MS62 money, you have given them power and control. If, on the other hand, you hold out for MS65 money from someone else who "knows" it's an MS65, you've had to go to extra effort but you haven't been "ruined" or "controlled". If no one agrees that the coin deserves MS65 money, perhaps what you "knew" was incorrect.
Please don't get me wrong. I occasionally get extremely frustrated with some of the grading and no-grading I see. But, like it or not, it is a numbers game, of sorts. Many mistakes are made, but they are far fewer than the number of coins which are graded correctly. You will probably live longer and be happier if you take some measure of control, by not letting those mistakes get to you. I know, that is much easier said than done and it doesn't make you feel better about what appear to be obvious mistakes. But......
"No more bets - "00" - everyone loses on the "roulette wheel" of 55(d) quarters again.
Ask Bob Z. about his luck with 55(d) quarters; I've already mentioned mine
Wondercoin
Mitch -- we have a meeting soon.
cheers, alan
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
I think the practical result would be far more coin doctors submitting coins. Why not, if they get a free roll of the dice.
The scenario you just mentioned is one that was occasionally discussed among the graders when I worked at NGC. We feared just the thing you mentioned. Admittedly, some of the innocent are penalized, along with the guilty, when refunds aren't issued for coins which are body-bagged.
On rare occasions we received groups of coins which were body-bagged due to cleaning, artificial color etc. and upon later learning that the coins belonged to collectors who hadn't done anything to the coins and who didn't know better, we refunded part of their grading fees.