What does MS61 mean to you?

ColonialCoinUnion

PCGS doesn't seem to use this grade that often (just a gut feel, I have no statistics to support that) but the 61s that I have seen are all over the map -

Very original looking coins that might have been 58s, sharp unc. coins with barely passable cleaning (meaning not so bad that they can't be slabbed), hugely bag-marked MS Morgans, etc.

I'm not sure I get it.

Higashiyama

As you have hinted at in your response, I think it depends alot on series.

For early coins, especially early gold, in means marginally better than AU58, but too marked to be MS62 (which, for early gold seems to mean coins with too much "friction" to be mint state in the old days, but really as attractive as a mint state coin).

For Morgans, as you say, it is really baggy.

For "classic" commems. few get slabbed except by mistake, but I think the rare MS61 grade in this category is likely to mean dipped out, just one step above a body bag.

jonesy

A coin with a shallow strike. Lousy detail but uncirculated.

tjkillian

I've seen MS-61 on many gold coins. Gold, being soft, is subject to bag marks. PCGS uses this grade a lot as so much gold is really baggy, yet clearly uncirculated.

Tom

Higashiyama

PS -- I actually have an MS61 coin in my collection, attached, from David Lawrence. Personally, I think this coin is a bit harshly graded, and is certainly on the "cusp" of 62!

darktone

I think alot of lightly cleaned coins coins make the grade of ms61 and every once in a while a coin will get this grade on contact marks alone. mike

cosmicdebris

PCGS and NGC both said this was a MS61

darktone

cosmicdebris- correct me if I am wrong but I detect that your coin has been cleaned and that is why the grade of ms61. mike

rays

Slightly better than the worst possible mint state example (MS60).

jonesy

I can't believe that 1906D is a 61!!

roadrunner

20 years ago, the whole range of AU58 to MS62 would have been lumped into one bag all worth about the same. Usually would have been called MS60 or AU58. In 95% of the cases, the coins are cleaned, damaged, circulated, rubbed, etc. Yes, most have been circulated for some period of time. How else would they get all those handling marks and a thinning of the luster? Bags of Morgans might be an exception to the rule.

To me, MS60-62 means "problem" coin that is in all likelihood NOT uncirculated. Call them "problem UNCs" if you will.

roadrunner

Julian

Slightly better than the worst possible mint state example (MS60).
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Ditto
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topstuf

My icon coin is a 60. The little dark spots on her forehead and bust are unstruck flat spots from weak strike. But, they are completely unmarked and highly polished prooflike which shows how REALLY nice the mint blanks must have been.

MrEureka

the 61s that I have seen are all over the map - Very original looking coins that might have been 58s, sharp unc. coins with barely passable cleaning (meaning not so bad that they can't be slabbed), hugely bag-marked MS Morgans, etc. I'm not sure I get it.

Don't worry. You get it.

Shamika

I think the question is "What is the typical reason for the MS61 grade". Although there are a host of reasons that can come into play, this usually depends on the series.

For instance, Buffalo Nickels commonly make this grade due to insufficient strike. Gold coins make this grade most often due to bag marks. Colonial coins make this grade due to very poor planchets and/or old cleanings.

Another reason that I suspect may be due to disagreement between the graders. What if three graders feel a coin deserves MS63, while the fourth stubbornly insists on AU-55. Perhaps a compromise is to award the coin an MS61 grade.

jonesy

Good answer ya ugly pug!!

numonebuyer

The difference between a high end MS-60 and a MS-61 is the difference between slightly better luster, or strike or eye appeal. It is very subjective and if the coin is better, it usually makes it to MS-62.

Here is a test, take all of you MS-60s and put them in order from best to worst. Now, take your best one. Is it really MS-60? It may be MS-61.

I have found that MS-60s look a lot alike, but every now and then, I will find one that looks just a little better than the rest and try to grade it again. Without bias, it will either grade MS-60 (albeit at the top of the range) or it might just crawl into MS-61.

It is fun to try this with about 10 to 20 MS-60s at one time.

Numonebuyer

mr1931S

MS 61 is the real grade for coins that reside in my MS 60 holders.

jonesy

numonebuyer, What kind of MS60 coins are we supposed to pretend were looking at here??

Newkid

I agree with darktone, I have seen many U.S. gold pieces graded MS61 that if it weren`t for the fact that they were lightly cleaned, they would otherwise be an MS64 or 65. The other MS61 coins I`ve seen have been baggy BU`s.

mr1931S

Depends on the grader(s) on duty at the time. Lots of latitude for assigning MS 60, 61, or 62 grade is allowed for Lib five gold at PCGS it seems.

paigowjohnny

I've got 2 61 Morgans, one from ANACS, and a nice toner in an NGC holder. My ANACS one has some major dingers on the cheek, and the luster is just enough flat to indicate it got a slight dipping at some time...but it still a pleasing coin. 61 was fair in my book on that one. My NGC one has a beauty of a rainbow, a great strike, and booming luster...but pretty baggy in the field on the obverse. I think on a good day it wouldv'e got a 62.

michael

for me

ms61 usually in most all cases means an ugly damaged/cleaned au58 but at first glance looks unc./was uncirculated before the damage/cleaning was done to it


sincerely michael

Tassa

If it's damaged or cleaned, why would it be holdered at all rather than being body bagged? Just wondering.

Baley

For me, it depends on the coin. for a modern coin, it's a pretty low grade, unless the coin is very rare.
for an older coin, say 150 or more years old, MS61 can be a very respectable grade, and can indicate a mint state coin with some combination of minor impariments that might include a weak or uneven strike, unattractive toning, (very very) light cleaning or other luster problems, bagmarks and other contact marks. It still might be an attractive and desireable coin, and might be a good grade to look at when choice and gem coins of the same date/mm are too expensive.

relayer

It means it's not the crappiest MS coin there is, but pretty close to it

numonebuyer

I just got this one (PCGS MS-61 1887/6) back from PCGS.




Numonebuyer