Rough Cuts

Virtualizard

I'm interested to hear what people think about rough cuts in PSA 8 or 9 holders. I bought one on ebay last week. I'm not going to post a link to the auction because the seller included a very clear, large scan of the card, and looking back, I should have noticed it. But, don't you think a seller should list this in the auction? Going one step further, why does PSA allow the rough cut to not affect the grade, but gives qualifiers such as PD and OC. In my opinion, there should be an RC qualifier. All 3 of these are factory produced flaws that are beyond the control of any collector.

I don't want rough cut cards in my collection. I've got several to upgrade - including 1 or 2 PSA 9's. This one was my fault, but I've purchased them before from sellers on ebay where it isn't clear from the scan. It would be nice for the seller to mention it and a qualifier would eliminate this problem.

Anyone agree/disagree/care at all?

JEB.

RedHeart54

Rough cuts are one of those subjective things. Some collectors don't care; some obviously do. I think it depends on the severity of the rough cut whether the PSA grade will be affected. Also, there are some sets, mainly old OPC baseball and hockey, that are predominately found with rough cuts, alas, PSA makes exceptions. Personally, I'm with you. If there's a card that I know I have seen wothout a rough cut, I'll wait (unless it's an old OPC card). Rough cuts don't give the best eye appeal, but some collectors will overlook that, especially if the card is a low population card or really popular.

Virtualizard

RedHeart,

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I need to elaborate: the 2 cards in my sets that come to mind are a 1970 Topps Baseball common card PSA 8 and a 1960 Topps Baseball Carl Yastrzemski Rookie Card PSA 8. Both are rough cut. This is not normal for these sets as it is for some OPC sets. I can see not issuing a qualifier for a set where the majority of cards are rough cut, but in my case, it is a rarity.

JEB.

mrc32

Rough cuts don't bother me that much. I actually think it makes the card look more pack fresh to me....don't really know why...

norty

Virtuallizard

I personally really like a rough cut, so long as it is not excessive. It shows me the card is virtually unhandled. In the old days PSA used to factor that into the grade and subtract for it. That hasn't been the case for quite some time now. I understand that some people don't like it but I think your gripe should be with PSA and not the dealer.

Virtualizard

Joe,

As I stated, my gripe is not with the dealer (in this case). He showed a great scan of the card in his auction which clearly showed the rough cut. I only glanced at the scan briefly, looking more for centering, and missed the rough cut. My questions were: should the seller disclose the rough cut in their item description and what do you think about rough cuts in general? You've answered the 2nd part. Thanks.

JEB.

norty

I guess indirectlly (and poorly) I was trying to answer the 1st part of the question too. Since PSA doesn't penalize cards for rough cuts when it grades a card, I don't think the dealer needed to describe what, in effect, is not considered a defect in the card by the grading service.

Just my 2 cents.

downgoesfrazier

Love 'em. No problems with them at all. The exception for me would be excessive chipping due to the cut. Otherwise it gives the card an uncirculated feel. One of the first "big" cards I ever owned was a 53 Jackie Robinson with a rough cut edge. I was young and figured it must be some sort of problem with the card. Years and years later when PSA began grading cards and I got involved in the process, I submitted that very card that I'd had for twenty years...It graded a 7 (70/30 TB).

Virtualizard

Thanks for the replies. I guess the rough cuts are more accepted than I thought.

Does anyone else feel the need for an "RC" qualifier? On an issue that does not regularly produce rough cuts, shouldn't a card that is rough cut be qualified?

JEB.

mikeschmidt

For me, it depends on the issue. For example, 1955 Bowman really doesn't have a rough cut problem -- so I would not purchase any 1955 Bowman cards that had a pronounced rough cut. On the other hand, the O-Pee-Chee baseball issues from the 1970s are notorious for their rough cuts -- I will not purchase a high grade card either raw or slabbed from these years unless I see the rough cut or can through some other means assure myself that it is the original cut (read: not recently sheet cut).

The only time that rough cuts really bug me is when the corners look soft -- even if it is straight from the pack.

RedHeart54

I don't think there needs to be a "RC" qualifier. If the cut is excessive enough, PSA will probably factor it into the grade. BTW, yes, I do think a seller should disclose a rough cut just as he should disclose any wear on the card. Then again, buying raw cards these days is as hard as ever. The old stand by never ceases: when they sell it's gold; when they buy, it's garbage.

norty

RedHeart54:

Isn't that what PSA's grade is for? If there is wear on the card or an unnaturally heavy rough cut, PSA's grade should reflect it. I don't see declaring that "this PSA 8 has a rough cut" as a dealer obligation once PSA grades the card. Clearly rough cut 8's and 9's do not violate any printed PSA standard. It is hard to declare that which does not affect the grading services' grade. That's one of the reasons we have grading services, to avoid the "it's NM when I sell it and ExMt when I buy it back" approach to things. Once PSA puts it in their holder and you scan the card for prospective buyers to see or show it to them at a show, any arguments about grading should be with the grading company. That's not to say buyers shouldn't ask questions about anything that may bother them so that it can be clarified in advance of a bid or purchase. They should. And dealers should answer them fully.

Virtualizard

Great points everyone.

I tend to agree that the grade of a 3rd party grading company should stand on its own, and the seller should not be responsible for pointing out specifics about the card. But, every other day I read a post that says, "buy the card, not the holder".

There will always be arguments such as "this 8 should have been a 9", or "there's no way that card should be a 9".

I just wanted to know what others thought about rough cuts.

Thanks again for your responses.

I'm looking forward to more.

JEB.

bengineno9

When it comes to OPC hockey. I'll take a rough cut PSA 9 over a "clean" cut BGS 9.5. If you know what i mean..

dbj77

I collect 1961 Fleer Basketball, and many of those cards have rough cuts too. I'm fine with them because at least if they're there you can be fairly certain that it hasn't been trimmed. They may detract slightly, but I'm ok with that.

RedHeart54

I think that because every graded card is not equal- there are high end, mid grade, and low end examples of any grade- a dealer should at least point out certain characteristics about the card he's selling, particularly the centering and any rough cuts because those two most affect the eye appeal. He may not have an "obligation", but a seller looking to get a good reputation should disclose certain things (just as he should disclose that his card is a high end example or a low pop, both of which will obviously help boost the price most times.)

As for OPC, I too won't buy anything from BGS. A 1970s/1980s card without a rough cut is a bonafide red flag.

JeffVN

I just bought supposedly GEM MINT CARD FROM GAI; this is what I saw when it got delivered. I dont care who the company is, GEM MINT does not have a rough cut back loking like this. I'm putting GAI to the set on their guarantee as we speak. I

hate rough cut cards, but it should at least be considered when the grade is given.

LJB17

Jeb,

I also am not a big fan of rough cut cards and therefore I stay away from the sets that have this condition as "standard."

Along a similar thought, and since you and I both collect the 1970 set, what is your perception of the PSA 8 and 9 cards that have a line running across the top or bottom of the cards. When I first submitted cards from my 1970 collection I didn't even consider these had a chance for a 7, but I often see 8s with lines and even a 9 once in awhile. I stay away from these for my set and if I pick some up in a lot purchase they get right back on ebay even if I need the card for my set. I don't care if the imperfection is part of the printing process for that year, it is still a detractor for me.

An example with line at the top.

Virtualizard

LJB,

The line used to really bother me, but I don't mind it as much now. All things being equal, I'd rather have the card without it though.

I'll have to check to see if I have any double whammies - rough cut card with the line!

JEB.

interchanges

I plain just don't like them. Especially on higher grade cards. I believe PSA, etc... should either downgrade the card, or put a qualifier on it. (when it's bad enough)

What kills me is when dealers (and I think they're all guilty) promote the cut as though it's desirable!
Gee, lets see, would I rather have a mint card with nice, clean, smooth borders, or one that looks as though it were cut with my lawnmower blade.

I cannot see how it adds appeal to the card.

mikeschmidt

<< I cannot see how it adds appeal to the card. >>


With a handful of issues -- it is a clear indication that the card has not been whacked by some unscrupulous dealer/seller/collector.

As much as I love sharp edges -- I will not purchase a card with overall shorter borders (think PRO-graded cards) just to have a sharp edge that never existed on the card in the first place

interchanges

But isn't the fact that the card is in a PSA holder enough of an indicator that it hasn't been whacked?

Most cards DON"T have a rough cut, so it's not exactly "peace of mind" to see a rough cut to assure me it hasn't. (been whacked)

I do agree about PRO grading services.
They might as well advertise, "Send us your PSA trimmed rejects, we'll help you recover some of your loss."

rynerbean

Virtualizard

I agree with you in a manner of speaking. Rough cuts are not GENERALLY desirable. I know your post was not about an O-Pee-Chee card, but I want to add my two cents here. I have a few O-Pee-Chee cards that are rough cut, and that rough cut is simply breathtakingly beautiful to me. I know that every such card was produced in just this manner. The knives used by O-Pee-Chee created a rough cut, rendering any smooth cut practically impossible. To me, these cards are quite perfect.

But in the case of your 1960 Yaz, I would rather have a straight cut, but for a PSA 8, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. Remember, a PSA 8 card is just almost mint, but there are certain imperfections that are allowed. It is apparent that PSA deems this factor fairly insignificant. I think you'll find that most grading companies have the same criteria, barring Beckett.

rynerbean

downgoesfrazier

Ryan,
Fantastic card. Stunning image. Thanks for posting that.

zardoz51

I LOVE rough cuts on vintage cards.

If there's one thing they cannot fake, it's a rough cut. I look upon a rough cut as one less side that I don't have to worry about.

KING KELLOGG

rynerbean...

Man!!! That thing needs a shave !!!




Larry

rynerbean

I've been using Barbasol on most of my 1980s O-Pee-Chee cards, but I have to use the sensitive skin variety for the older ones.

I just got a really nice lot of 1966 O-Pee-Chee cards, and I think I may try to shave those edges with a little Log Cabin syrup.

Yikes! Nah, I think I'll leave 'em alone.

rynerbean

JeffVN

Man that is NASTY - Makes my fuzzt GEM MINT look great in comparison.

Browntoni

I do not know what it is, but OPC rough cut cards are some of my favorites!!!