New problem(?) with PCGS
KenzoT
Posts: 307
Just got my latest modern submission back from PCGStoday.
Order included two 1994-P Matte Jeffersons from the Jefferson Coin and Currency sets. I submitted them with a PCGS Coin # of 4230.
One came back, now coin # 4132, MS69, and the other coin #84132, MS69FS.
This makes the #4132 the finest known by two grades, and the #84132 tied with 6 others for finest known. PCGS has already added them to the population report as simply MS coins, but I know they are SMS coins because I removed them myself from the sets.
Maybe someone pulled a fast one and switched finest known coins for the Matte coins before I got the sets, but I doubt it.
What to do?
Order included two 1994-P Matte Jeffersons from the Jefferson Coin and Currency sets. I submitted them with a PCGS Coin # of 4230.
One came back, now coin # 4132, MS69, and the other coin #84132, MS69FS.
This makes the #4132 the finest known by two grades, and the #84132 tied with 6 others for finest known. PCGS has already added them to the population report as simply MS coins, but I know they are SMS coins because I removed them myself from the sets.
Maybe someone pulled a fast one and switched finest known coins for the Matte coins before I got the sets, but I doubt it.
What to do?
0
Comments
Glenn
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
For a MS69FS MATTE SMS, the price is $250.
Maybe I will resubmit then for a review, tell them I bought them as MS and they end up as MS SMS. Should be worth a few thousand in the end. I can tell them I paid anything I would like to tell them I paid for them, they made the mistake, not me.
HOW CAN A PROFESSIONAL COIN GRADING SERVICE miss such a thing?
Don't they know the difference between a MATTE and a regular circulation strike?
This has me puzzled.
I submit them as SMS and PCGS says they are circulation strikes, who am I to argue with the EXPERTS! After all, they are the EXPERTS, they know everything, they can do whatever they please!
This time, I got 'um.
Comments from PCGS?
Anyone in the market for a nice circulation strike 1994-P?
Sometimes I feel that most here would complain about the sun coming out if there was nothing else to complain about that day.
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
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<< <i>I can tell them I paid anything I would like to tell them I paid for them, they made the mistake, not me. >>
You complain about them not being professional, but you suggest lying to them to line your own wallet? Shame.
Phone them, tell them of the mistake, and send them back for a free re-holder as what they are. They will not pay you the difference.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I asked for the SMS designation. They MUST have CONSIDERED this possibility as I asked for it, they found one to be FULL STEP and the other NOT and I cannot tell you why after staring at them for the last hour. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE STEPS ON EITHER COIN! Both are FULL STEPS!
To make the designation of full steps, they had to look at the coin!
The MATTE Jefferson 5c are very different from anything made for circulation!
In the same submission, PCGS #9005735, if you care to look, were two 1998-s SMS Kennedy's. They got the SMS designation, the following two coins did not. Those are my Jeffersons.
I am not out to cheat anyone, as some have implied, I want PCGS to pay for this. God only knows I have paid them enough for the EXPERT opinion they sell. NO ROOM FOR ERROR, especially something so BASIC!
You want such EXPERTS doing the DNA at YOUR trial?
<< <i>I am not trying to make excuses for PCGS, but I think they are doing the best they can. I mean heck, everyone complains about delays in grading, so they try and speed it up a little, and they make a few mistakes, and bam...more complaints. With the amount of coins they grade normally I feel there is a regular error rate of a few coins per couple hundred anyway, which is okay in my book (I mean who here does 100% error free work themselves) and add in the fact they are grading more coins than ever, the acceptable error rate is going to increase slightly.
Sometimes I feel that most here would complain about the sun coming out if there was nothing else to complain about that day.
morris <>< >>
I like that,.... "(I mean who here does 100% error free work themselves)".
I take it you never packed your own parachutes.
Ray
Glenn
For the sake of the population reports and Jefferson enthusiasts please don't let these errors remain in the population reports. That is unfair to fellow collectors seeking the best set possible and being stymied by the presence of mechanical errors in the population report.
In fact, in the event PCGS does not agree to reholder the coins at their cost, please let me know. I will personally reimburse your roundtrip postage and reslab fees to make sure these two coins get holdered correctly.
Sure, they make mistakes, but so do all of us.
WH
Brian.
09/07/2006
Here is a link to a thread a few months ago. It's long but it is right on topic. PCGS has made this mistake in the past. It would appear they are still making the same mistake.
Frank
Text
My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)
My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
Ya, but the rest of us have to pay for our mistakes, PCGS doesn't. They'll probably say you tried to pull one over on them and are owned nothing... like the guy with the counterfeit colonial in a PCGS slab. I'd send them a link to the eBay auction or offer to do their work for them at my usual rate of $500/hr. They don't grade for free, I don't correct their mistakes for free either. If they don't like that deal, too friggin' bad.
I assume PCGS is a bit "short staffed" right now, or they would likely be ALL OVER this to try to clean it up and would have made those Pop Report changes I suggested back in February.
Wondercoin
This may not be purely scientific since you will already know one is susposedly FS and the other is not.
PM me and I will tell you how to recognize me at the show.
Then, let me say, you may want to read your submission form. You, as a submitter, have an obligation to point out the mistake.
Yes, I know we pay them for a professional opinion, but remember, even though they have opened up their services to just about anyone, it is expected that one who submits coins knows what they are doing. It used to tickle me to death when people asked, how can I fill in the value block; what is a coin number and some of the other confusing items. Its because the system wasn't designed for novices or those totally out of the loop. The option still exists to submit through authorized dealers.
This is not an excuse. I'm just pointing out that submitters have a bit more responsibility than to just send coins in. Hey, you're part of the PCGS circle now.
Thanks,
WH
You would think that making their Pop Reports accurate would be priority one with them and trusted (till I just read your comments) that they had already done so.
I shake my head is disbelief.
peacockcoins
1. THE ENORMOUS LIABILITY PCGS RISKS (WHICH I DO BELIEVE CAN BE REDUCED BY PCGS TAKING AN ACTIVE ROLE IN CLEANING UP THE ERRORS ON THE POP REPORT) AND THE DESIRE TO AVOID SEEING UNSUSPECTING "NEWBIES" PAYING MULTI-THOSUANDS FOR MISLABELED COINS.
2. THE DESIRE TO SEE HARD WORKING COLLECTORS ACHIEVE THEIR GOAL OF A "PERFECT" COLLECTION AND NOT HAVE THE GOAL TWARTED BY PATENTLY ERRONEOUS LISTINGS IN THE POP REPORT.
3. THE DESIRE TO MAKE THE POP REPORT AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE, ESPECIALLY AS TO THE "POP TOP" COINS.
I hope PCGS removes all the clearly erroneous "pop top" listings for 1994 and 1997 regular issue nickels, as IMHO MS67FS is as good as it gets in those dates with the remainder of the higher graded coins being nothing more than mechanical errors.
Now I have a couple of coins that PCGS s**ewed up on and you want me to give them back to PCGS for a free regrade to help the POP reports?
That 1983 NO S PF68 is not even in the POP report, all 1983 NO S's are recorded as PF68 DCAM, but my coin does not have the DCAM.
They are not interested in my 1983 dime unless I PAY more! I think I am right that PCGS PF68's have always brought LESS than PCGS PF68 DCAM on E Bay! You say the 1994 MS69FS do not exists, neither do 1983 NO S PF68's without DCAM, but to get my coin corrected, I PAY!
They BB'd a 1891 Morgan of mine for cleaning after it had been MS63'd by ANACS and NGC. That coin resides in an ANACS MS63 holder again and PCGS has my fee.
LET THEM RIDE! Give it back and let them correct it? They never afforded me those rights, WHY SHOULD I LET THEM SLIDE?
The EXPERTS s**ewed up! They need to pay for it.
OK, here come the "your only in it for the money" people. WHAT IS PCGS IN IT FOR?
M O N E Y!!!!!!!
PCGS GUARANTEE???????
Let's see what it means!
<< <i>ATTORNEYS - have I misinterpreted this? Wondercoin >>
My oh my! How quickly you forget your former profession, Mitch!!
Pete
Wondercoin
PCGS made a mistake and the coin should be returned and put in the proper holder. That is the right thing to do. Just because PCGS can be a bunch of arrogant jerks when it comes to your coins doesn't mean you shouldn't be an honorable person and do the right thing. Like Wayne said this coin messes up the population reports and ruins the legitamacy of future coins graded.
You are going to have to decide which is worth more-- Your honor as being a fair person or the extra money you can make from someones obvious mistake. I've been down this road once before with a 1945 Dime graded MS-65 Split Bands that was flat as a pancake. An obvious mistake and bought the coin for $500. I sent it out to a dealer for $7,000 and the coin came back to me. I felt ashamed of myself and sent the coin back to where I bought it with the understanding the coin would go back to PCGS. I'm no angel but I'm ashamed of myself for trying to do what I did and am glad that the dealer was smart enough not to buy the coin or buy the coin with the intention of sticking some collector with it. I felt dirty and swore then if presented with the same situation I would do the right thing. I still feel dirty when I think about it. Yea I could have made $6,500 if I kept trying to sell it but am glad I changed my mind. Even though I initially failed the test I do feel I am a better person the way it worked out. Take my advice, keep your integrity and get the coin reholdered correctly.
Maybe that's why you haven't got a response from PCGS yet. Their waiting to see your next step.
"agrees to hold PCGS harmless from any and all losses and / or claims caused by the circulation or sale of incorrectly described coin".
To all those out there that are still practicing law or thinking they are experts in it - when exactly did the law of contracts change after I retired?
I don't think the the mechanical mistake argument would hold water, especially if it was pointed out on the submission slip that the coins were SMS.
<< <i>I don't think the the mechanical mistake argument would hold water, especially if it was pointed out on the submission slip that the coins were SMS. >>
I was wondering if it could make the "mechanical mistake" argument more valid.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Wondercoin- If some collector, years down the road, submitted the coins for grade guarantee and the coins were found to be mis-graded, then the collector is going to expect PCGS to make good on the guarantee. Which they most certainly would do.
They are going to look to PCGS! Not the original submitter. Now, might PCGS attempt to seek remedy from the submitter? Perhaps. However, the suit and/or threat would be less than stellar public relations. How do you think a liberal jury in the state of California will view a case from a BIG, BAD public corporation against a little bitty individual collector?? There is the matter, as BlackHawk correctly pointed out, "PCGS and its graders are looked at as experts in this field". Now, I don't need to remind you that "experts" in their field are held to a totally different standard in a court of law. Better you try and get a cold glass of water in hell, before you attempt to win that case.
How do I think a jury would rule? It would never get to a jury. Once the judge read the printout of this thread provided by PCGS, he would issue a summary judgement in favor of CLCT.
Keep the coins, frame them and put them on your wall as a momento or send them back to PCGS to have them correct the inserts. BUT DO NOT SELL THEM!
I'm curious. Did you bother to pick up the phone and call PCGS about the problem before posting this thread? If not, I'd suggest you call Charlie Kahler at ext. 141. You might be shocked to learn that PCGS sometimes actually does the right thing and may very well correct the mistake at no net cost to you.
I realize, though, that it's easier to just yell and scream about a problem than it is to try and solve it.
Russ, NCNE
DCAM: I agree and then it appears PCGS may have the right to ask that the submitter repay them, especially where the submitter sold the coin in the first place knowing full well the coin was in the wrong holder. Now, if the end user pays $10,000 for this coin and later asks PCGS for a check for $10,000, this is the perfect coin for PCGS to seek reimbursement from the original submitter, because the coin is a no-question mechanical error IMHO.
Wondercion
I have yet to hear how PCGS handles this. Perhaps tomorrow we can ask DH.
The submitter would be an absolute fool to repay PCGS. And PCGS would be absolute fools to attempt to sue a collector that provided them with the proper information at the time of submission.
Just my opinion.
So, let's assume a submitter of a mechanical error thinks he can "get away with it" (generally speaking, not specifically this situation). So, what can he do?
1. Sell it to an "ignorant dealer" cheap who doesn't know what he is buying. When the dealer sells it off and the buyer discovers what has happened to him, the buyer may very likely demand his money back directly from the "ignorant dealer" - who will go back to the submitter for a refund as well after paying back the buyer. Here, the submitter accomplishes nothing, unless he plans to tell the ignorant dealer that he will not refund him.
2. Sell it to a "crooked dealer" cheap who does know what he is buying. When the dealer sells it off and the buyer discovers what has happened to him, the buyer may very likely demand his money back directly from the "crooked dealer" - who will say no and PCGS will get dragged in. Submitter and crooked dealer all benefit UNLESS PCGS EXCERCISES ITS POTENTIAL RIGHTS.
3. Try peddling it at auction - odds are the auction company will be alerted to the problem and pull the coin. If not, a "newbie" will likely get burned buying the coin and call PCGS. Submitter benefits UNLESS PCGS EXCERCISES ITS POTENTIAL RIGHTS.
4. Sell it to a "kool aid" drinking Registry guy who is only after an insert tag to elevate his set standing. HERE IS THE ONE WAY THE SUBMITTER CAN MAKE MONEY IN THE SHORT RUN AND NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH ANY BACKLASH - AT LEAST UNTIL THE TIME THE "KOOL AID" DRINKER DECIDES TO SELL HIS COLLECTION.
My question - isn't easier to simply "sleep at night" and send the coin back to PCGS now?
My money is on a decision being based on the fact that no matter who made the mistake at the grading company, the company is liable and must make good on the guarantee.
I have never said these coins are FOR SALE. I fact, I have turned down an offer from a board member for a private sale.
My point in keeping these coins as they are is that PCGS isn't as perfect as they make themselves out to be. I've had my share of body bags from them when NO OTHER grading service saw a problem.
Mechanical error? I don't think so. As I said before, they looked at these coins close enough to determine one as FS and the other NOT.
THEY changed the coin number to circulation strikes, not me. That took a conscious, professional, decision on thier part.
Clean up the POP report? If I send these back for regrade, the POP report will come down 1 coin for each catagory. What about the other SIX MS69FS(No SMS) coins? Are the owners of those coins going to send thier coins back in also because of guilt pangs or moral reasons? Dream on!
These coins aren't going anywhere for a while, I want to see how the Professionals handle this. My bet is they simply IGNORE it.
Thanks for listening.
HOW PATHETIC
Wondercoin
I do not think the offer from the board member had any EVIL intentions. I do not think his intentions were to defraud someone or get an advantage on a Registry set.