Does anybody else think that some of the patterns look far better than the production coins?

Russ · March 30, 2003 4:34AM

I've been browsing around this site and doing some high volume drooling.

Looking at some of the extraordinary pieces pictured there, and comparing them to what eventually became production coinage, I keep asking myself what the hell was going through the minds of mint officials? Many of the patterns are far, far more beautiful than what eventually got minted.

Was it politics? Production difficulties? What prevented some of these amazing designs from becoming the coin of the realm?

Russ, NCNE

mdwoods · March 30, 2003 4:36AM

I guess I would like to see some of the SBA patterns. Then I could really wonder what the mint was up to.

Russ · March 30, 2003 4:40AM

If the SBA patterns were only half as ugly as the final product, they'd still be 100% butt.

Russ, NCNE

RKKay · March 30, 2003 4:44AM

Russ, have you checked out the Morgan dimes, quarters and halves? Also check out the Shield Earrings (J1698 to 1703). Finally, see the Washladies (from about 1584 to 1607, though the Morgan dimes are 1586 to 1589).

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 4:49AM

Glad you like the site, Russ!

For the pattern afficionados out there, you can all look forward to this summer's release of the 8th edition of Judd. Dave Bowers is giving the book a major facelift. Based on sneak previews I can tell you that it will be fantastic!

For everyone else, check out the pattern section in the upcoming 2004 Red Book. It only includes a couple dozen patterns, but it still does a pretty good job getting the blood pumping.

mdwoods · March 30, 2003 5:18AM

For the pattern afficionados out there, you can all look forward to this summer's release of the 8th edition of Judd.

Oh boy. Another neat book I can add to my Library. Thanks Andy!

ursabear · March 30, 2003 5:46AM

Russ,

In a word, yes.

Even some of the proposed modern patterns I have seen are truly more interesting than their production counterparts.

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 6:42AM

For the Bear and the Barber Lovers

ms70 · March 30, 2003 6:56AM

Yup! I always loved this one:

boiler78 · March 30, 2003 7:20AM

I have always prefered this Barber half to the design chosen in 1892.

nwcs · March 30, 2003 7:31AM

Occassionally the patterns were better, but I think that most times we think they're better simply because they're different. We're very used to what got selected so the patterns have that newness to them.

boiler78 · March 30, 2003 8:03AM

IMO the reverse design on this Liberty nickel pattern is far superior to the design that was selected and not just because its different. I think the "cents" on the scroll is much more artistic than "cents" in block type below the wreath.

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 9:11AM

I think that most times we think they're better simply because they're different.

There's some truth to that, but still...

Stolen from a friend, hope he doesn't mind! (the picture,not the coin)

anoldgoat · March 30, 2003 9:19AM

Thanks MrEureka, made my day.

RKKay · March 30, 2003 9:19AM

I agree with NWCS. If the Schoolgirl had been selected, rather than the Morgan Dollar or Morgan's other spectacular pattern dollar, the Shield Earring Dollar, perhaps we'd be lamenting the failure to select the Morgan Dollar design.

Nevertheless, I agree with Boiler that the reverse of the J-1717 through 1719 is significantly nicer than the regular issue reverse.

wingedliberty · March 30, 2003 9:22AM

Patterns are great.
I am still trying to cherrypick Judd-1794 (Mercury dime prototype).

Brian.

boiler78 · March 30, 2003 10:03AM

Which design do you prefer?

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 10:19AM

I don't know, let me think about it...

Photos stolen from Heritage, I hope they don't mind!

WWW · March 30, 2003 10:25AM

B78 and Andy are having a pattern duel. Don't stop guys! I love the patterns and hopefully I will soon be acquiring one for myself.

cosmicdebris · March 30, 2003 10:36AM

Gold Matte Proofs RULE!

boiler78 · March 30, 2003 10:45AM

The proof indian eagles are cool and prohibitively rare but I still prefer St. Gaudens original "high relief" design before Barber modified it.

Askari · March 30, 2003 12:34PM

Still my all-time favorite:

jom · March 30, 2003 1:19PM

Boiler78: Who cares which design is better? Just gimme, gimme, gimme...

jom

boiler78 · March 30, 2003 7:38PM

Askari- Where can I get one of those??

I love the obverse on that coin! The reverse doesn't do much for me but the obverse is outstanding!

kranky · March 30, 2003 8:50PM

Agreed, Russ. There were some spectacular designs that never made it into regular production. I remember the first time I saw a Judd book, I was blown away! I had no clue that there were such things.

I hadn't heard they were updating Judd's book - having just gotten Pollock's book recently, it's going to be tough to top, even for QDB.

dorkkarl · March 30, 2003 8:57PM

many, if not the vast majority, of patterns are unrealistic candidates for high-volume production. the reason so many look so nice is the advantage of far more detail than what makes it to production

likewise patterns are usually struck in high-relief, which does not do well in production either

K S

dorkkarl · March 30, 2003 8:58PM

btw, it's also part of the reason many foreign coins look so much nicer. other countries have no need to mint coins in such high volume as the u.s., so they can use more detail / better relief on their coins

K S

boiler78 · March 30, 2003 9:11PM

Karl- I agree that "high relief" designs pose problems for production in large quantities but I am only aware of a small handfull of patterns that were struck in high relief.

Askari · March 30, 2003 9:32PM

Karl, the foreign coins with high relief tend to be NCLT ("non-circulating legal tender" like the ASEs), not so much the circulating issues. Most circulating coins have roughly the same relief as US coins. It's more a production quality issue. It doesn't look good if you have a beautiful design that strikes up poorly and inconsistently in business strike runs. High relief allows more of a "medallic" quality to a design, but only as an enhancement to the basic design. (Would a higher-relief SuzyB look any better?)

dorkkarl · March 30, 2003 11:03PM

hey boiler78, thanks for the correction. what i mean to say is "higher relief than production coins"

K S

jom · March 31, 2003 12:06AM

Also, it seems politics get involved here too much. Note the recent stupidity that came out of the state of Virginia. What ever happened with that anyway....?

jom

dorkkarl · March 31, 2003 12:15AM

hey askari, thanks a lot for the info. i wish i was up more on foreign coins.

the examples i like to think of are the 1's that were struck here in the u.s.a by the franklin mint for some of the caribbean countries, etc. correct me if i'm wrong, but as i recall, they were struck in small quantities (10,000's) for actual circulation, but because the qty's were so small, near every 1 of the danged coins looks like a beautiful high-relief matte proof. they could only pull that off because of the low production runs.

any insight you have would be real welcome. again, i'm just not up on the foreign coins, but i know there's a whole other "world" out there where i'm probably missing out on a lot of fun by not paying more attention.

K S

cacheman · March 31, 2003 2:12AM

Here's a nice Goetz Pattern piece I just acquired.....

trozau · March 31, 2003 2:24AM

Here's a nice article on George T. Morgan and his silver dollar design. After reading, it kind of makes you wonder what wondrous US coinage we may have had if only this British transplant was supported and encouraged to reach his true potential instead of being kept at bay by the Barbers (who justifiably felt threatened by this man).

GEORGE T. MORGAN: Hands Across the Pond

The story surrounding George T. Morgan and the development of the Morgan silver dollar is an intriguing one, filled with back-room politics and the clash of titan personalities. Yet it is from this backdrop that Morgan was able to create his crowning achievement.

Officials at the Mint in 1876, correctly reading the winds of congressional opinion, anticipated the passage of silver dollar legislation, and therefore authorized a multitude of new silver dollar patterns. Many were readapted designs of earlier motifs, and it's safe to say that none excited the Director of the Mint, Dr. Henry R. Linderman. To further complicate the situation, the relationship between Dr. Linderman and his Chief Engraver, William Barber, was apparently not a close one. It has been speculated that whatever antagonism existed between them might have developed during Linderman's earlier stint as Director of the Mint (1867-1869). In any case, Linderman took the bold initiative of privately seeking an outside engraver, one more receptive to his input and clearly more original in his thinking.

It was in this context that Linderman wrote to his friend, Deputy Master C.V. Freemantle of the Royal Mint in London, inquiring if there was a skilled engraver he could recommend. Freemantle's reply was that George Morgan, a young engraver with whom he was acquainted both personally and professionally, might be acceptable. Morgan's credentials were indeed impressive. He had attended several prominent art schools, was a national art scholarship recipient, and studied under the most famous engraver of his day, William Wyon of the British Royal Mint. From Morgan's perspective, the position offered by Linderman represented a grand opportunity, and he was quick to accept. Not long after, negotiations as to the terms of his special appointment were finalized, and on September 27th, 1876 George T, Morgan set sail for America.

Immediately upon arrival in Philadelphia, Morgan found himself walking a political tightrope, as he met with various Mint personnel, including Chief Engraver William Barber. Morgan's reception was less than enthusiastic, as he was a perceived threat not only to William Barber as Chief Engraver, but also to his son, Charles Barber, who also worked at the Mint as an engraver and whose future was being carefully cultivated. Complicating matters further, Morgan, as Assistant Engraver, was not to report to William Barber, but rather directly to Linderman in Washington - an arrangement that was sure to please the Chief Engraver!

Unable to prevent Morgan's appointment, Barber was, however, not without considerable clout. Once Morgan was to commence work, Barber was able to forestall his actually working on the Mint premises, ostensibly because of lack of space! Instead, Morgan was forced to set up shop at the boarding house where he was residing! Not surprisingly, the situation proved unsatisfactory and he soon moved to a new location. There he was able to finalize the designs that were to ultimately find their way onto the world's most popular coin, the Morgan silver dollar.

Askari · March 31, 2003 9:55AM

Karl, most coins the FM struck for a foreign country are NCLT. They are more medallic in nature because they're intended for collectors, not circulation, and are basically silver rounds with a country name and denomination on them.

<< <i>i know there's a whole other "world" out there where i'm probably missing out on a lot of fun by not paying more attention. >>

You sure nailed that one, Karl!! You ought to come over and browse around ... the natives are much friendlier!!

boiler78 · March 31, 2003 10:07AM

trozau- Great input! Thanks for the education.

Does anybody else think that some of the patterns look far better than the production coins?

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