Truthteller on a RAMPAGE, you're so right!!! long, yet informative.
truthteller
Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
Well, the post many of you wanted to see. So, what's up with Truthteller, why the rampage, why ditch your respect? Frankly, respect for many on this forum left a long time ago. When the forum began, it's function was to trade information, ideas, from both dealers and collectors. Rather informal, somewhat provocative, very polite(most of the time), and always thankful. Respect was key, those that didn't were labeled and ignored. Now the forum has turned into the old Roman Coliseum, where dealers are fed to the collector lions, and visa versa. Good, honest people get squashed, great ideas get mashed, information gets perverted, and individuals get ridiculed.
Many of you think that a smartarse quip is the way to go. No value, just low IQ drivel. Those folks have made this a very, very uncomfortable place to be. Why denegrate someone, or his ideas? Why start a fight, when good dialogue would serve the purpose? Easy answer, it takes intelligence to search for a response, and many posters are sincerely lacking in the intelligence department. Yes , many will say, HOW CAN HE SAY that!!! Because it's true. If you want to add a comment, use the best words, the best thoughts, something good, something informative. Trash talk makes people forget the good points of a post. Learn from the mistakes of others.
Many of you think it's OK to bash dealers, sometimes a good verbal thrashing is warrented, especially for true scum on ebay and the like. However, if you trash, make sure you do it in a way to bring people on your side. A bad experience, late payment, no return phone call, no return email is of no concern and is simply one of the bumps in life. They happen to all of us. Those that whine about it are making life miserable for the forum and for the dealer. Small, petty barbs seem to be proliferating, burying the good transactions, the good dealers, the good collectors. Whiners get no respect from me, and I truly believe they represent what is bad about the state of this society and this hobby. It is the same effort to make a good post as much as a negative post, one of which can ruin a reputation of a good dealer or a good collector. So why does it happen? Because this forum allows it,sometimes supports it! Many times, it's a mob mentality, one gets the flame going, other pour on the gasoline.
For many years, I have been posting in fashion which has gained the respect of others. Very nice, but I don't post for that reason. I post to make others think, as well as inform. So some of you lose respect for me, OK. Some of you chide me, OK. I speak my mind, I don't have a business for you to bash, I don't have a collector base that will disappear overnight, I don't have connections with any grading service that will be cut off. So, I have no qualms about anyone being upset or angry. No reprecussions, just plain speaking, Harry Truman style. You like what I have to say agree, don't denegrate, because I'll blow you away. If you don't like what I have to say, give another honest opinion and little cherry blossoms might fall from the sky. Respect goes a long way, but disrespect stays forever.
Now, many of you will post negative responses. If you do, that's Ok, just make sure they are intelligent responses, with some thought. Many of you will say nothing and lose all respect, that' OK too and to be expected. I don't ask for anything from anyone on this forum. I given WAY too much to the forum over the years, and I feel very good about it. I've made some friends, and that's good too. I've made some enemies, collectors and dealers, but I think the challenge is worth more than their loss of business. In fact, in the begining several dealers came up to me at shows and told me to "shut up" on the forum. My response was for them to post rather than me to keep silent. They never did, because it was a money issue. The industry is now money oriented. Slabs and money.
Yes, I nicely bash the idea of moderns in slabs. My opinion. I feel that any coin valued to extremes, whether classic or modern, is overrated when in a slab. How can the same coin be worth thousands more in the morning than in the evening because the number on the holder went from 6 to 7. Beyond belief. The value is in the coin. The slab gives the ILLUSION of value. Pure business sense. A toy looks ten times better in a fancy box and cost ten times more, but the toy is still worth pennies. And many new collectors will view that slab for the package rather than for the coin.
So will I stay on a RAMPAGE? You bet!
TRUTH
Many of you think that a smartarse quip is the way to go. No value, just low IQ drivel. Those folks have made this a very, very uncomfortable place to be. Why denegrate someone, or his ideas? Why start a fight, when good dialogue would serve the purpose? Easy answer, it takes intelligence to search for a response, and many posters are sincerely lacking in the intelligence department. Yes , many will say, HOW CAN HE SAY that!!! Because it's true. If you want to add a comment, use the best words, the best thoughts, something good, something informative. Trash talk makes people forget the good points of a post. Learn from the mistakes of others.
Many of you think it's OK to bash dealers, sometimes a good verbal thrashing is warrented, especially for true scum on ebay and the like. However, if you trash, make sure you do it in a way to bring people on your side. A bad experience, late payment, no return phone call, no return email is of no concern and is simply one of the bumps in life. They happen to all of us. Those that whine about it are making life miserable for the forum and for the dealer. Small, petty barbs seem to be proliferating, burying the good transactions, the good dealers, the good collectors. Whiners get no respect from me, and I truly believe they represent what is bad about the state of this society and this hobby. It is the same effort to make a good post as much as a negative post, one of which can ruin a reputation of a good dealer or a good collector. So why does it happen? Because this forum allows it,sometimes supports it! Many times, it's a mob mentality, one gets the flame going, other pour on the gasoline.
For many years, I have been posting in fashion which has gained the respect of others. Very nice, but I don't post for that reason. I post to make others think, as well as inform. So some of you lose respect for me, OK. Some of you chide me, OK. I speak my mind, I don't have a business for you to bash, I don't have a collector base that will disappear overnight, I don't have connections with any grading service that will be cut off. So, I have no qualms about anyone being upset or angry. No reprecussions, just plain speaking, Harry Truman style. You like what I have to say agree, don't denegrate, because I'll blow you away. If you don't like what I have to say, give another honest opinion and little cherry blossoms might fall from the sky. Respect goes a long way, but disrespect stays forever.
Now, many of you will post negative responses. If you do, that's Ok, just make sure they are intelligent responses, with some thought. Many of you will say nothing and lose all respect, that' OK too and to be expected. I don't ask for anything from anyone on this forum. I given WAY too much to the forum over the years, and I feel very good about it. I've made some friends, and that's good too. I've made some enemies, collectors and dealers, but I think the challenge is worth more than their loss of business. In fact, in the begining several dealers came up to me at shows and told me to "shut up" on the forum. My response was for them to post rather than me to keep silent. They never did, because it was a money issue. The industry is now money oriented. Slabs and money.
Yes, I nicely bash the idea of moderns in slabs. My opinion. I feel that any coin valued to extremes, whether classic or modern, is overrated when in a slab. How can the same coin be worth thousands more in the morning than in the evening because the number on the holder went from 6 to 7. Beyond belief. The value is in the coin. The slab gives the ILLUSION of value. Pure business sense. A toy looks ten times better in a fancy box and cost ten times more, but the toy is still worth pennies. And many new collectors will view that slab for the package rather than for the coin.
So will I stay on a RAMPAGE? You bet!
TRUTH
0
Comments
GSAGUY
Well, the post many of you wanted to see. So, what's up with Truthteller, why the rampage, why ditch your respect? Frankly, respect for many on this forum left a long time ago. When the forum began, it's function was to trade information, ideas, from both dealers and collectors. Rather informal, somewhat provocative, very polite(most of the time), and always thankful. Respect was key, those that didn't were labeled and ignored. Now the forum has turned into the old Roman Coliseum, where dealers are fed to the collector lions, and visa versa. Good, honest people get squashed, great ideas get mashed, information gets perverted, and individuals get ridiculed.
Many of you think that a smartarse quip is the way to go. No value, just low IQ drivel. Those folks have made this a very, very uncomfortable place to be. Why denegrate someone, or his ideas? Why start a fight, when good dialogue would serve the purpose? Easy answer, it takes intelligence to search for a response, and many posters are sincerely lacking in the intelligence department. Yes , many will say, HOW CAN HE SAY that!!! Because it's true. If you want to add a comment, use the best words, the best thoughts, something good, something informative. Trash talk makes people forget the good points of a post. Learn from the mistakes of others.
Many of you think it's OK to bash dealers, sometimes a good verbal thrashing is warrented, especially for true scum on ebay and the like. However, if you trash, make sure you do it in a way to bring people on your side. A bad experience, late payment, no return phone call, no return email is of no concern and is simply one of the bumps in life. They happen to all of us. Those that whine about it are making life miserable for the forum and for the dealer. Small, petty barbs seem to be proliferating, burying the good transactions, the good dealers, the good collectors. Whiners get no respect from me, and I truly believe they represent what is bad about the state of this society and this hobby. It is the same effort to make a good post as much as a negative post, one of which can ruin a reputation of a good dealer or a good collector. So why does it happen? Because this forum allows it,sometimes supports it! Many times, it's a mob mentality, one gets the flame going, other pour on the gasoline.
For many years, I have been posting in fashion which has gained the respect of others. Very nice, but I don't post for that reason. I post to make others think, as well as inform. So some of you lose respect for me, OK. Some of you chide me, OK. I speak my mind, I don't have a business for you to bash, I don't have a collector base that will disappear overnight, I don't have connections with any grading service that will be cut off. So, I have no qualms about anyone being upset or angry. No reprecussions, just plain speaking, Harry Truman style. You like what I have to say agree, don't denegrate, because I'll blow you away. If you don't like what I have to say, give another honest opinion and little cherry blossoms might fall from the sky. Respect goes a long way, but disrespect stays forever.
Now, many of you will post negative responses. If you do, that's Ok, just make sure they are intelligent responses, with some thought. Many of you will say nothing and lose all respect, that' OK too and to be expected. I don't ask for anything from anyone on this forum. I given WAY too much to the forum over the years, and I feel very good about it. I've made some friends, and that's good too. I've made some enemies, collectors and dealers, but I think the challenge is worth more than their loss of business. In fact, in the begining several dealers came up to me at shows and told me to "shut up" on the forum. My response was for them to post rather than me to keep silent. They never did, because it was a money issue. The industry is now money oriented. Slabs and money.
Yes, I nicely bash the idea of moderns in slabs. My opinion. I feel that any coin valued to extremes, whether classic or modern, is overrated when in a slab. How can the same coin be worth thousands more in the morning than in the evening because the number on the holder went from 6 to 7. Beyond belief. The value is in the coin. The slab gives the ILLUSION of value. Pure business sense. A toy looks ten times better in a fancy box and cost ten times more, but the toy is still worth pennies. And many new collectors will view that slab for the package rather than for the coin.
So will I stay on a RAMPAGE? You bet!
At the minimum, and as an added bonus- it brought Mark back!
peacockcoins
Also thanks to GSAGUY for saving my eyes.
TBT
Collecting Dollars
It took me MONTHS to train Michael to use paragraph breaks!!! He was/is a good student and we get along just great!!
No wonder others flame you.......they are trying to burn paragraph breaks into your postings.
Now on a more serious note, sure enough of what you say is true but it is not all black and white. Definite excesses here and there in the moderns but this hobby has seen much in the way of excesses over the years.
The real question is what is the solution? I have always maintained the ANA needs to have a stronger role as a consumer protection agency to educate and monitor the industry.
I have found that new collectors getting burned has been going on for as long as I remember. The trick is what now?
How can the same coin be worth thousands more in the morning than in the evening because the number on the holder went from 6 to 7?
Everybody just disappears when that question is presented here. Keep your rampage going, as I feel that you are doing a service for the forum.
Ed
By "insurance policy" I mean the guarantee by the grading service that the coin doesn't turn black or purple during your ownership. I happen to believe that the coin is worth what it's worth - irrespective of the holder it's in or the grade on the label. One way of looking at it is that any change is value is simply a premium attached to the guarantee.
Excuse me if I am wrong or not following your trend of thought, but shouldn't little pieces of carbon that are not as rare as most people realize, all be priced the same and to hell with the industry standards? Some people like and collect Moderns and some folks don't, and the same applies to the classics. I would'nt spend a ton of money on a what looks to me as a beautiful classic coin no more than I would spend the same amount on a diamond simply because it "sparkles real nice".
Here is where we need to begin again on this forum:
Lessons learned
1. Life is difficult.
2. Discipline is a basic set of tools and required to solve life's problems. Think before you post.
3. Delay gratification from time to time when unsure about a coin purchase. Accept responsibility for mistakes and find the truth about your situation.
4. Set aside yourself when listening to someone or reading someone's post.
Feel free to add others.
Tbig
Edited for spelling...
Everybody just disappears when that question is presented here. Keep your rampage going, as I feel that you are doing a service for the forum.
Because I want the best and I will pay for the best. The slabbing companies are there for the good of me. If they say the coin is an MS67 even though it looks like an MS66, then who are we to complain or even question?
They are the experts. They have the final say-so in the condition of a coin. They are the people who should be placing a value on a coin, not you non-experts.
Personally, I think it should be a crime to break a coin out of a slab to try for a higher grade. You are disagreeing with the experts and therefore, you are trying to commit fraud on the next potential buyer.
I would write more, but I've got some upgrades to add to my modern set. I'm finally going to move into a tie at the #2 position with 438 other collectors. I'm so excited.
for my own part, all the comings and goings here, the announced "i'm leaving" and bickering back and forth have caused me to use the PM function as a viable option towards educated discourse and sharing of personal opinion. the forum seems to have morphed into some sort of pollyanna soap opera, dominated by off-topic ranting and chummy cliques. the diminishing educational value is quite disheartening.
al h.
Edited to add:
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I think the main thrust of TT's post is how we've lost too much decorum here and with each other, and how it is no longer acceptable by many simply to disagree. It seems that to many around here, if you disagree with me, then you must be a scumbag because my opinion is always correct.
It's ok to disagree; the world is full of issues that are grey instead of black-and-white.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Well Greg, the problem is that the "experts" opinions seem to change on a daily basis. How can the slabbing companies have a FINAL say-so, yet have their opinion change one month later. That change could result in the loss of thousands of dollars for someone. The "expert" graders are only human and humans make mistakes. Also, what kind of credibility can the slabbing companies have if their grade changes 3 times on the same coin??
Here's the bigger issue: Silver Eagles are NOT COINS. They are bullion items. Show me a VG-8 1997 Silver Eagle and then I will be impressed. Greg, why don't you just go and slab your collection of mean and evil 1 ounce Snowman bars or some Chuckie Cheese tokens.
Turn on your PM function
<< <i>How can the same coin be worth thousands more in the morning than in the evening because the number on the holder went from 6 to 7? >>
Simple. Some people own things for ego, bragging rights. Why else pay tens of thousands for an 1969 cent. Its not the coin, its the "my coins better than your coin" mentality and I've got a number on the slab to prove it. Its not a hobby for some, its a competition to feel superior by owning superior, even if no one but them cares.
Good post
jom
Since when hasn't any industry been money oriented. I have given many on these forums very good deals, but only a few have reciprocated.
Why start a fight, when good dialogue would serve the purpose?
You say this, but then go on to say the following.
Yes, I nicely bash the idea of moderns in slabs.
I don't like most classic designs. I don't care if they are rare or not. After the Draped Bust coinage, I think our coins were boring until the 20th century. The Seated coinage is a knock off of a British design. The Barber coinage is a knock off of antique coins. I always encourage people to collect what they want to collect, why does it bother you if people want to spend money on an MS70 Commem rather than an ugly Capped Bust coin?
Posts which serve to inflame serve no purpose on this forum, and now I am guilty of the same. I am sick of feeling like I have to defend myself for collecting moderns. It's my money, my life, I don't want your comments on it any more than I might comment about your sexuality or any other personal thing. Perhaps you need a dose of humility, and of of your own medicine. I sign this regretfully, mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Can't say I have ever had a problem with any of your post.
No BS...just the truth.
Myself and probably many others should follow your example.
TRUTH
Yes, humility is nice in a semiperfect world. But this is a coin forum, where identities are hidden, and motives are not clear. I've seeem to have gotten quite a bit of attention lately. I doubt some people would have even cared if I posted something humble. Intelligent shakeup tends to get the point across much more clearly. I think I have made the point and, at the very least, turned some heads. I bash nicely until someone makes a nasty remark, then I blow them up. It's rather simple. Assured Mutual Destruction, be fair, be nice, be smart or we both get blown away.
TRUTH
Wow, at least he is not trying to stir up trouble is he. What a (edited out personal attack, sorry Truthteller). Don't ever think a Dealer is your friend, they are your friend when you are buying. There are rare exceptions, but I can count the ones I know on one hand and have fingers left over.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Anyone who gets into this hobby for the money shouldn't be should be ready for a big dissapointment, because as with anything else, unless you devote yourself entirely to the endeavour, you're not going to be the best. I like collecting because I like coins, what they look like, and what they can teach me. Do I like to hit a homerun now and again? Sure, who doesn't? But in all honesty, the money that I "invest" in my collection may as well be lost. I do it because I like it.
Am I going to take advantage of market trends and look to make a few bucks if I can TO REPLENISH my collection or perhaps head it in new directions? Absolutely. I earn my money, and if there's a way to get coin A by selling coin B, I may very well do this and not have my hobby affect my lifestyle negatively. Have I lost money in this hobby? Bunches, but crying over spilled milk isn't going to restore it. In the end, people will act the way they have been taught. It's a crying shame that as most of us have reached a stage in our lives where we're supposed to be an example for the young, some of us still can't grasp the idea of what it's like to act in an acceptable way socially. Grow up people - there are a lot of young eyes watching your every move!
Frank
<< <i>No matter what the reasons are for the recent posts of truthteller, I've always found him to be a decent, upstanding, and fair individual who is always willing to share his time and vast knowledge without hesitation or wanting something in return. He has always treated me with dignity and respect without reguard to my collector/dealer status and I appreciate that. I will do my best to continue to treat people the same. >>
Absolutely! I have always appreciated the meaningful contributions of Truthteller. He has always had my respect and nothing he has said in the last few days will change that. He provides great insight and meaningful conversation. He can differ with other's opinions without accusations, attacks, slashing, bashing and name calling. I respect that! It is OK to disagree. It is NOT OK to attack and name-call. We should not tolerate it from those that can't provide meaningful contributions.
Nice tolerance for a different opinion -- NOT! So much for hoping that we don't resort to name calling...
Well, at least we found one person who's quite passionate about this issue!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Maybe one solution would be to split this forum into 2 catagories: classics and moderns. I would prefer to keep them together, though. That way we can all learn to appreciate all coins...classic or modern. That, of course, excludes silver eagles (barf).
I have tried to be tolerant, but enough is enough. Don't Pee down my back and then tell me it's raining. mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
You have my solemn promise, I'll never pee down your back. Interesting line, I must remember it.
TRUTH
<< <i>I have tried to be tolerant, but enough is enough. Don't Pee down my back and then tell me it's raining. mdwoods >>
In the immortal typings of Russ:
BRRRRRRRAAHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAHHHWWWWWHAAAAAAA
It's Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
I wish you people would get it right.
Russ, NCNE
thes Forums on topice of varied subjects that are of interest to them. People cant accept all that this
Forum gives that is good without giving something back.
Will these people be burned from time to time, unfortunately yes, but that is the nature
of the beast in the real world.We all have feelings and at times those feelings are hurt, but
the really good people pull themselves up ,and renter the fray.
Camelot
<< <i>Very informative post Truth, as always. I thought the boards were bad a few months back, but recently it has become nothing more than weekend trash talking, and if it is not that, the rest of the posts are composed by just a few individuals who overwhelm the board with just a select few series of coins and their new buys, waiting for their followers to drool over their new Ebay purchase. It's boring to see the the same folks posting the same stuff over and over again about the same one or two series of coins they collect, we need some variety and different opinions sometimes, but then again, that's just my opinion. >>
Andy007- VERY well said! You are so right. It is those threads that clutter up the Forum and push the good threads to the 2nd and 3rd page. Those few Members are so self-involved they just don't understand that the Forum just isn't all about THEM and their coins.
As far as my part in doing a little better, I will try to be less cynical in my posting about posts that are clearly off-topic on the boards. I get burned everytime I make such comments in posts about the Jets, or whose the new babe on the Maxim, but let's keep it to coins for the most part, and intelligent posts about coins at that.
Why attack those that do post new threads more than others?
If it's about coins...Go for it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I think the main thrust of TT's post is how we've lost too much decorum here and with each other, and how it is no longer acceptable by many simply to disagree. It seems that to many around here, if you disagree with me, then you must be a scumbag because my opinion is always correct. >>
It's not so much 'decorum', but simple courtesy and respect. If I want serious abuse for trying to be constructive, I can go down to the local biker bar and 'suggest' they clean up their act.
These boards used to be a whole lot of more pleasant fun -- people asking questions and getting intelligent, educated answers and opinions, sharing the delight over a neat acquisition ... just having fun with other folks who liked to collect. As time has gone on, though, there seems to be more and more baiting and biting. Every once in a while it goes over the top and, amidst the embarassed aftermath, there's a resurgence of civility ... for a while. Many of the folk who used to be major and valuable contributors to this forum have long disappeared, staying in touch with the friends they made, but otherwise escaping the hassles. From time to time, a few more tire of it and head on to greener fields (or even the Dark Side, where there remains more of that "old-timey" atmosphere).
If drivel and knife-fighting are your kick, well, there's a forum for that: it's called the Open Forum. Use it. But if you just want to enjoy our hobby, then kick back and chew the fat and observe that old maxim, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It's not really all that hard.
... Is it??
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
But I did want to make a few observations in this thread. So bear with me for a moment. When I came to this board, I knew basically nothing about coins. I did know some, but I quickly realized that I was overwhelmed by how much there was to learn. The threads about guessing grades and seeing peoples opinions gave me some ideas and confidence. I soon discovered I was overconfident and I overpaid for coins. Lesson learned.
I also learned about the controversy of slabs. Before being here, I had no idea that grading was so subjective. I thought PCGS (which was the only one I knew of) was the expert and who was I to argue? I didn't realize that they could be wrong because I didn't know how crazy grading is. The whole idea of crackouts was pure silliness and folly to me. But I learned.
Threads came and went on various topics and I picked up pieces of information. Soon I realized I had something I could share. So I shared what I understood, testing my numismatic wings. Didn't get it right all the time but I kept trying. I am not a long suffering collector grading savant, but a student learning of coins.
What I think is that we have spent a lot of time seeing what is wrong with this forum and not a lot of time seeing what is good. There is good that occurs here and that good helps people sometimes. And I don't want that good drowned out by the bad. But if all we focus on is stamping out the bad, we forget to add any good. But if we focus on adding only good, bad has no place to sprout. And that is why I try to participate only in interesting threads, helpful threads, and ways I can add something. I want to help give back to the forum some of the experience I've received from it.
So I encourage you all to add what is good here. What encourages, teaches, and builds comaraderie. And let go of those things that tear down and destroy, that devour enthusiasm and fun.
Neil
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM