A new turn on the forum: private transactions made public. SO SAD!!

truthteller

After reading the voluminus Park Ave thread, I have now come to realize that this forum is now being used to announce and publicize bad transactions. BAD precident. What I came away from reading 15+ pages was that a reputable dealer was battered by comments, and a neophyte dealer/collector was made to look stupid. Just realize that every transaction a dealer or collector makes can be thrust onto this public forum. From $2 to $200,000, the deal goes bad and your name is up in lights. A quiet resolution may have been much more appropriate. Another reason not to sell retail.


TRUTH

IrishMike

I hope several of the posters on that thread never, never buy a coin from me. Remember the thread "do you want to be a coin dealer", well I said emphatically "NO" and the other thread illustrates why.

truthteller you are right on, I wonder what has happen to settling differences is a professional, businesslike manner and this is no way intended to reflect a comment towards the buyer and seller, but to some of the side comments from the coin gallery.

coinguy1

As a dealer, I can tell you, this forum can be one scary place, no matter how hard we try to keep our clients happy!

tradedollarnut

Perhaps looking a bit foolish was preferable to eating the coin?

I agree that it should have been resolved privately, and it was brought to the forum MUCH too quickly, but let's face it - as long as the forum is a tool to get something that otherwise wouldn't be gotten, it will be misused.

Dog97

As a collector and not a dealer I found the thread very interesting. A dealer that sales publicly is certianly subject to public scrutiny & discussion and I think the good as well as the bad should be discussed. I certianly learned something from it because I asumed that if a dealer offered a return on his coins it applied to all coins his firm handled, not limited to coins he actually owned. I will cerianly pay more attention to my dealings and will not ASSUME as much.
The dealer handled himself in a professional manner and didn't resort to name calling or flaming and act like an a$$hole like most dealers dealers do when they first come to this board because their so called "honor" has been offended.
We post threads about negging a seller over a $25 cleaned Morgan, getting a coin with 12 cents postage due etc etc and that seems to be acceptable so why not a $22,000 coin?
It could have just as easily have been me posting about a no return on this coin instead of RKay because I didn't realize "done deal" meant what it means.

Petescorner

I think both of the parties benfitted from the thread. The buyer got a return privilege he had already been denied. And the seller got a lot of good publicity for his willingness to work out a reasonable solution, even though he didn't have to. Congratulations to both!

There were some who came across poorly, but neither of the two main parties, in my opinion.

MrLee

I have to agree with Dog97 and Petescorner and as I said in the aforementioned thread, it was a good lesson in Numismatics 101. Cross the T's and dot the I's and don't assume anything in all your transactions.

prooflike

I learned not to buy a $20,000+ alledged overgraded coin sight unseen done deal with no agreed upon return policy.

I'm glad I don't play with the big boys

DDR

I agree with Dog, I found the thread very educational. I'm glad I read it all the way through.

TWQG

I'll agree with Dog97 and Petescorner. Said thread was a valuable lesson to collectors and I fail to see how this public forum was 'misused'. Public scrutiny is at the heart of any free market. As to the other dealers jumping in and making themselves look bad, she does this just about everytime she posts here. Econ 101- Shut up, you're losing customers!

tradedollarnut

Econ 102 - be consistent and those that agree with you will follow. Be inconsistent and all you do is guarantee you'll piss off 100%!


Public scrutiny is at the heart of any free market

Public scrutiny of a private deal between two dealers is important? NOT!

jom

I can see the benefit of having certain things (ie dealers) scrutinized about general things (how they conduct business, are they any good, etc) in public as Dog97 suggests but basically a SPECIFIC transaction is probably a thing that should be kept quiet. I mean, anyone in that transaction will NEVER get the benefit of the doubt, not on this forum anyway. The general cynicism of coin collectors will keep that from happening I'm sure.

jom

wondercoin

"a reputable dealer was battered by comments, and a neophyte dealer/collector was made to look stupid."

Frankly, I was also impressed how the reputable dealer handled himself yesterday and IMHO there is no crime in being a neophyte dealer/collector and I do not believe the buyer looked stupid at all. There are many businesses in this country where the "new kid on the block" gets help from the established vendors. The coin business is obviously Not one of them. Rick learned a hard lesson and paid for his error in judgment.

I do agree with Truth though that all avenues of resolution should be exhausted before a private transaction is made public here.

Wondercoin.

EVillageProwler

As to the other dealers jumping in and making themselves look bad, she does this just about everytime she posts here.

Sean,

It's pretty obvious that you're talking about Laura Sperber...

I'm fairly certain that if you polled everyone who has frequent experience with her posts, you'll see that you're in the small minority with your opinion. You don't like her probably for her style. That, however, is merely your opinion or preference or whatever that is personal to you. Don't mistake that for a consensus opinion.

EVP

LucyBop

<< <i>Laura Sperber >>



She is very intelligent, and strong minded!!!! A regular HepKitty!!!!!!

tjkillian

I do agree with Petescorner and Dog97 that it was helpful. Certainly a lot better than going to court. I think all who read/particpated in it are better off now.

Tom

EVillageProwler

and I fail to see how this public forum was 'misused'

I don't know RKKay, and certainly don't know his intent. But, there are (at least) two possibilities for why he posted that thread here (and across the street). It could be to warn us of a potential scumbag, and he felt that he was doing a good public service. Or, it could be that he's very upset at what happened to him and simply wanted to whine about it.

I'm not trying to attack RKKay; we all have seen both types of posts on this message board.

If it were the latter case, then I would say that this forum was misused.

Regards,

EVP

dorkkarl

fortunately, in the big scheme of things, this forum (despite what those who would like to believe otherwise) has hardly a smidgeon of influence on the big picture. the capacity for this forum to influence the coin market has been heavily overrated.

but it can be a lot of fun!

K S

darktone

dorkkarl, I totally agree and it is fun 99% of the time! mike

ldhair

I can see how many feel this should have been kept private. There are a lot of ways and opinions on how to look at this. The hobby or industry has really changed over the years.

Myself, I learned one more meaning to 'Done Deal"

Dealers=It's finished.
Collector=I'll send the money.. You send the coin and if it's right it's finished.
Realtor=Lets do the contract and see what pops up. It's finished at closing.
Car sales=Pay for it and drive it away. It's finished when the warranty is over.

I like knowing what a dealer has to deal with but don't wish to walk in their shoes.
Don't sound like a part time job.

mr1931S

MrLee:
>>>I have to agree with Dog97 and Petescorner and as I said in the aforementioned thread, it was a good lesson in Numismatics 101. Cross the T's and dot the I's and don't assume anything in all your transactions.

i agree with this.As has been pointed out there are two sides to every story.We don't hear everything that transpired,everything that was said,etc.Just as we get different opinions about the grade of a coin there will be differences of opinion about what's "right" and what's "wrong" ethical behavior for buyers and sellers.Not getting the full story goes along way towards creating those differences of opinion because it's human nature to allow assumption to creep in when the full facts aren't or can't be known.Once a private situation is "leaked" by someone,buyer or seller or otherwise,no matter,posting in these threads it does become public...very public.I've seen the good news with the not-so-good in these public threads.From what i've seen so far,there is pretty good balance here of good with the not-so-good.

What did i learn from reading of this "soured deal"? My belief that it is sound practice for a buyer to understand a seller's return policy or lack thereof has been reinforced.Also,a seller should make his return policy or lack therof perfectly clear to potential buyers as a matter of practice.
Don't fail to put it in writing.You should not assume that others understand what you understand.
If it's supposed to be a "done deal" spell it out in terms any literate person can understand.

truthteller

I find many responses very interesting. I have collected for 25 years and been in the business for 12 years. I must say, this industry is very unregulated, has few standards, lacks education and etiquette. However, there are many upstanding dealers who have been in the business for years, while others come and go. I have dealt with collectors for many years, on both sides of the table. Over the last 10 years, I have seen a transition from the loyal collector who deals with only several 'good' dealers, to those collectors who only want great coins, really cheap, from anyone, at anytime, on their conditions. Frankly, it's the American way to be crybabies now. If buyer is uneducated to the industry, why is he/she spending thousands of dollars. Learn the ropes first, $5, $50, $500 at a time. I guarantee those who want to be 'instant' coin dealers will get severely burned, then come to this forum and cry foul. That's the way I see it. If I were to get into the car business, and order 10 cadillacs, done deal, I own them. Just try to get your money back from GM. Bob Greene is one of the good guys in the industry and I would do business with him in a heartbeat. On the other hand, any of those people who bash over deals like this in the open coin forum are sure to lose ALL credibility for future transactions. This industry is very small, and dealers as well as collectors communicate who the crybabies are.

TRUTH

Morganluver

I may have been a little too sensitive in my judgement, but my philosophy remains the same. Whether I'm trading dealer to dealer, dealer to collector, collector to dealer, or any other combination, and whether it's sight seen or unseen, I will always offer a reasonable return reguardless of the price "negotiated". I will always apply the "Golden Rule" to every transaction I enter into which allows me to sleep well knowing that I've treated everyone the way I would like to be treated. As I have stated before, honesty, integrity, decency, fair play, and trust are things that should not carry a price tag because these traits are priceless to me. I also agree that this "done deal" gone bad should not have been brought to the boards in the way it was. It kind of reminded me of Laura's "bad deal" with PCGS that may or may not have been resolved satisfactorily had it not been brought to this board.

nwcs

It is illustrative that the board is increasingly becoming the place to resolve disputes and mediate between people. If at all, it should be a last resort. I learned a few things from that, especially reaffirming my desire not to be a dealer. In my tiny bit of experience in selling, I learned that the customer isn't always right and it gets so annoying keeping my big trap shut. I gained respect for those who do sell. It's hard.

I think many things would be different if we recognized whose fight it is, and let them resolve it.

TWQG

"Sean,

It's pretty obvious that you're talking about Laura Sperber...

I'm fairly certain that if you polled everyone who has frequent experience with her posts, you'll see that you're in the small minority with your opinion. You don't like her probably for her style. That, however, is merely your opinion or preference or whatever that is personal to you. Don't mistake that for a consensus opinion."

I abhor collectivist thought. For that reason I do not put my finger in the air before I put forth my ideas (which are obviously my opinions). I don't recall making any reference to a consensus opinion. I can state unequivocally that she lost at least one future customer. (I was lost over a year ago, and reading that thread revealed a few more that would not give her business). The bootlicking apologists also revealed themselves.

BigD5

Truthteller, I applaud you for getting through the 15+ pages. I went through two, and knew it was none of my business, and moved on.

EVillageProwler

The bootlicking apologists also revealed themselves.

As did two other classes of people: those who actually know her; and, those who are self-righteous, sanctimonious opinionated morons who'll form deeply entrenched positions based on little information.

EVP

Nic

Truth told the truth. So did Laurie. I find it refreshing. K

tradedollarnut

I abhor collectivist thought.

Funny, so does Laura. Why are you trying to get her to conform?



I can state unequivocally that she lost at least one future customer.

Yeah, but she had such a good time trying to educate the masses. What's a little profit compared to the overall wellbeing of such an important place as this forum?



The bootlicking apologists also revealed themselves.

Wow. With straight, opinionated talk like that, you better become a coin dealer so collectors can shun you because you state your opinion!


Funny how it's ok for you to bluntly state your opinions in a somewhat obnoxious manner but you expect others to conform to your idea of decorum. Talk about a double standard!

CalGold

I agree with those who feel that it is inappropriate to use this board to unilaterally publicize private dealings that have gone bad. As we have seen, there are two sides to every story and it is very unfair for one party to post here without the other party being aware of it so that they can air their position.


On the other hand, it appears that things may have worked out for the best between that particular buyer and seller as a result of that thread. Which opens the door to the possibility of board members voluntarily using the forum as an informal mediation tool to resolve their disputes. In other words, I do not think it would be inappropriate if two parties to a transaction agreed to bring their dispute to the board to see what others think and see if a fair solution might be suggested.
CG

Nic

Calgold...disputes brought to what board? Hopefully not this one. K