3 stunning prices at Heritage FUN auction

DennisH · January 11, 2003 3:09PM

Hello everyone:

Just staggered home after 3 days at FUN. My brain is still in shock from three Heritage auction results:

1 -- Talk of the show was the 1963 PCGS-70DCAM Lincoln that brought $33,000 plus the juice.
2 -- 1941-D Washington quarter NGC-68 brought $15,500 plus the juice.
3 -- 1954-P Washington quarter NGC-68 brought $15,000 plus the juice.

Yes, I'm dead serious.

-- Dennis

michael · January 11, 2003 3:13PM

rare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i was wondering to those that have seen these coins in person sight seen

lets say you broke these coins out of their respective holders what would these three coins bring raw if they were offered at the FUN show on the bourse at a dealers table just inside a mylar flip??

i mean even raw they must be at least worth 30% of their slabbed values??????

if not then what gives here??

sincerely michael

SarasotaFrank · January 11, 2003 3:26PM

this freaking madness is just one of the reasons I am re-evaluating my participation in this sport. $5,000 jefferson nickels, $15,000 quarters and $30,000 Lincoln cents.

boggles my mind

barberlover · January 11, 2003 7:16PM

I made a post yesterday saying "the coin gods must be crazy" reffering to what happened the last few days in florida in the signature sale. It wasn't just in more modern coins. There are examples in every series that had hi graded high end for the grade coins. I think the area with the most examples was full red copper like the 1909 p indian penny in mint state 66 red going for around 12,000 or getting out bid on every single mint state coin i liked, the best of which was a lovely original 74 s arrows quarter in 66 that had a heritage index value of 5000-6200 that sold for just over 10,000. This was clearly an eye appeal thing not a proof thing or a dcam thing or a full red thing or a modern thing because there are to many examples in to many different areas to say it was just this or just that. And don't forgety the under bidders in all these areas who helped create these inflated rediculous prices. As i said before i don't know if this was a temporary fluke or the beginings of a real bull market for the first time in almost 13 years, but if this is real and this keeps up, i'll do what i did in 1989, sell my entire collection of mint state coins at inflated prices then wait for the bubble to burst before getting back in the hobby again. barberlover

cosmicdebris · January 11, 2003 7:57PM

After seeing the images of that 1963 PCGS 70DCAM Lincoln. I can not believe anyone paid that much money for it. Did anyone here see it up close? You think the new owner might send it back for PCGS's grade guarantee?

itsnotjustme · January 11, 2003 8:03PM

I can't imagine the new owner sending it in for grade review. I think the new owner wants a PR70 DCAM 1963 Lincoln--regardless of if the coin would get a 67CAM or 68CAM if graded today. I can't imagine the owner didn't see at least the scans we saw!

Placid · January 11, 2003 8:05PM

I am glad someone is making money from coin collecting. The coins I have had 10+ years are still the same price as when I bought them.

Barry · January 11, 2003 8:29PM

<< <i>Hello everyone:

Just staggered home after 3 days at FUN. My brain is still in shock from three Heritage auction results:

1 -- Talk of the show was the 1963 PCGS-70DCAM Lincoln that brought $33,000 plus the juice.
2 -- 1941-D Washington quarter NGC-68 brought $15,500 plus the juice.
3 -- 1954-P Washington quarter NGC-68 brought $15,000 plus the juice.

Yes, I'm dead serious.

-- Dennis >>

Just remember dotcoms. The bubble will break!

Lakesammman · January 11, 2003 9:13PM

Rumor on the floor was that PCGS may eat that one. There was no floor bidding on it. Wonder if the internet bidder saw it in person?? May be in part why PCGS is being so conservative with copper currently.

toothpuller · January 11, 2003 9:32PM

Barberlover,

Granted the prices realized at FUN were very high, but you really can't use the Heritage Value Index to properly gauge correct prices. It is a notoriously low ball estimate. I refer to it as the Heritage Of Little Value Index.

Trime · January 11, 2003 9:35PM

Well, to each their own in the joys of collecting and registry enthusisms.
I am happy that most of the coins I am interested in are still available at prices less distorted.
There are some really gorgeous scarce dates of 19th century silver and nickel fractional coins that can be bought for much less.

michael · January 11, 2003 9:39PM

couls someone on here post links/scans of the above three coins??

ND SOME OTHER LINKS/photos of the lincolns indians that brought monster exceptional prices?

sincerely michael

Placid · January 11, 2003 9:42PM

Placid · January 11, 2003 9:45PM

IrishMike · January 11, 2003 9:45PM

I didn't arrive in time to see the coin (63 lincoln) but everyone I talked to that saw it said it was not a 70. Hall made a comment about it at the reception to Rick Tomaska having sold it to the seller for 2K.

Outhaul · January 11, 2003 9:49PM

I don't get it?

Placid · January 11, 2003 9:50PM

I can't find the 54 quarter. ???

barberlover · January 11, 2003 10:18PM

about the heritage value index, i think it tries to give you an accurate estimate not of what you might excpect to pay from a high end retailer with his 20 to 30 percent profit margin built in, but what you might excpect to get if you tried to resell a coin at the wholesale level you'd get from a dealer, also the value gives you a range for most coins this range at the upper end is commperable to greysheet prices. I let my subscriptions to all coin related trade sheets and papers expire in anticipation of all the online versions, once i get them i will defenitly compare greysheet levels with the upper end of the heritage index to see if what i think still holds true. I also think that there seem to be some people buying this inflated price stuff who haven't been collecting very long who know nothing about the hobby what so ever who will find out the hard way what there coins are really wirth someday. I completly agree with trime that mint state type coins of the 19th century currently offer the best values in the hobby, at any rate i will continue to buy them because i love them, and if they ever have a surge in value, so much the better.

IrishMike · January 11, 2003 10:22PM

DHeath · January 11, 2003 10:41PM

Fascinating. I never cease to be amazed at what I don't know. It will take me alot of thought to understand those results. What I do believe though is that if the competetion to have the finest can attract collectors with enough money and interest to purchase at this level, commercial treasure hunters will quickly render the small submitter irrelevant to the services, and the supply of unsearched material will greatly diminish. Oh well, it will be an interesting few years.

merz2 · January 11, 2003 10:50PM

DHeath
I think you hit the nail on the head.I've said before,the money that was going into the stock market is finding it's way into collectables(in this case coins).Naturally they are only after what they perceive to be the very best money can buy.Even us Registry Set owners and dealers a like would never consider paying that kind of money for some of those coins.IMHO

michael · January 11, 2003 11:05PM

thnaks for the scans of the three coins

myself i see some nice coins but as far as the two quarters go from the scans i do not see exceptional toning at all........... let alone a 68 grade maybe really nice 67 coins ??

for the proof lincoln i really do not see what is soooooooooooooooooooooooo special about it

from the scan
if the coin was a proof indian cent it would be a red cameo and a cameo plus at best
and with the spotting a red 66 coin maybe a 67

maybe sight seen they are great coins ???? or maybe i am missing something???

sincerely michael

Nap · January 11, 2003 11:42PM

Not being able to sleep last night, I put on the Coin Vault to watch them peddle some $7 silver eagles for $20 or so. The guy mentioned the selling price of the lincoln cent at the FUN show to indicate the strength of the coin market.

Suddenly, their prices on coins didn't seem so bad!

I hope that the new owner finds many reasons to love his new coin... namely thirty thousand reasons. If so, than congratulations to him/her, they have gotten a real bargain. After all, that's what it's all about, right?

Placid · January 11, 2003 11:53PM

Heritage shows the 63 cent sold for: $39,100.00 (with BP).

DHeath · January 11, 2003 11:53PM

Don,

Based on FUN, what is this worth. Call me crazy, but I like it better than the PR70, not based on the surfaces, but because it is somewhat less common. Looks like we'd all better learn to like the undergrade.

BTW - Is there doubling on the reverse? Unum looks spread. Could be the pic.

asnooker · January 12, 2003 12:20AM

I don't know what started this bubble but it sure has me going through the rolled lincolns my Father-in-Law collected. I doubt that I will find one, since I don't see what is so special in the first place. This too shall pass......

FC57Coins · January 12, 2003 12:37AM

OK - Here it is, bargain basement pricing! - First one to deposit $10K in my paypal account it's yours!

redhott · January 12, 2003 12:40AM

if these results can't be duplicated, they aren't real. an old trick of the coin game to make it easier to sell the enormous quantities of lesser material available everyday.

braddick · January 12, 2003 12:46AM

What would prevent the original owner of that 1963 proof Lincoln from having a couple of his buddies run the coin up to $30,000.00++ and then return the coin to PCGS for their grade guarantee? The submitter gets thirty grand and the "new" owner gets his money back.
The only loser here would be PCGS who have already gone on record as to the coin's inablility to grade out PR70 again.

Placid · January 12, 2003 12:47AM

Pcgs will pay what they consider fair market value. Just because someone pay's a rediculous price for a coin dosen't mean that is what pcgs will value the coin at.

"JS...The PCGS grading guarantee only covers the grade on the holder. Further, it doesn't really cover the price you pay in any instance...it only covers the market value of the coin, i.e. the replacement value of the same grade. So let's say you go crazy in an auction and pay way over market for a white coin. If there is a problem later we can only make good on the real value, not your auction heat extravagence".
D. Hall

The above post in the Q&A section

roadrunner · January 14, 2003 10:06AM

Concerning that 74-s arrows quarter in PCGS MS66 (old green label)that Heritage sold at FUN for just over $10,000 (lot 6697) it was a superb coin bordering on 67. Would not be surprised to see the coin reappear soon in a MS67 slab. I was the underbidder on that coin at $9775 and felt it was one of the best MS seated types in the entire sale. It didn't hurt that it was an original 66++ either with great luster, eye appeal, and surfaces. Had I not left a bid with a friend I might have been tempted to go higher in person.

There's currently a problem with so much average material for the grade on the market. Dipped out, scuffy, and nicked up 66's are languishing in the $5000-$6500 range. Many (or most!) are no better than 65+ coins. You can apply this to most any series too. When an honest high end coin shows up, the competition is fierce. To see it bring twice what a technical 65+ (holdered as a 66) coin brings is not all that much a stretch. Obviously, anyone going by the catalogue description would have no chance. A simply superb common date 1932 $10 Indian in a very old PCGS 64 holder (lot 8912) brought around $3300 in the sale. Some of the floor bidders couldn't believe it that an internet bid took the lot so strong. Maybe they had the same intel too. The coin brought well over 65 money because it was a strong 65+ coin. I liked this coin better than any 65 I had seen in the auction or in the show. Maybe close to 66. I had a $2500 "bid" on this lot and felt good I could take it for far less. Let's face it. The competition for PQ coins is tough.
There is much less competition for very average to lower-end stuff.

roadrunner

jom · January 14, 2003 10:12AM

1 -- Talk of the show was the 1963 PCGS-70DCAM Lincoln that brought $33,000 plus the juice.

2 -- 1941-D Washington quarter NGC-68 brought $15,500 plus the juice.

3 -- 1954-P Washington quarter NGC-68 brought $15,000 plus the juice.

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

As to the 32-P Eagle RR mentioned: It all depends. If I were a collector, I probably wouldn't bother with that one. It's far to common to spend money on that you can use to get other dates. If you thinking of reselling it isn't hard to tell if the coin will go 65 or 66...it's a relatively easy coin to grade, IMO.

jom

Nic · January 14, 2003 10:17AM

Roadrunner is sooo very right. K

roadrunner · January 14, 2003 10:44AM

The 1932 eagle should be a very easy coin to grade. Since this one was graded in the pre-1990 era.....it's listed grade has no bearing on what it would grade today. I felt fairly strongly that the coin would go 66. Even back in pre-1990 this coin should have been 65.
While that may be of little concern to any of us, a 66 grade could pay for one's trip to the FUN show. These coins still pop up. The grading is just SO inconsistent today at NGC and PCGS that there is more risk than ever when you get your freshly graded coins back from the services. If they were tight, you will get slaugtered by selling them outright as graded.

I thought the grading game was risky enough 12-14 years ago. Today, it's a minefield.

roadrunner

Ronyahski · January 14, 2003 10:47AM

Roadrunner right on. When "fresh" coins (overused term) are offered in auctions, you have to be there and see the coins to understand why some prices defy the sheets. I think that was evident with some of the Wisconsin collection in Superior.

Some coins are retreads and don't get, nor deserve, the attention. Example: Heritage had an 1873 Arrows Half in PCGS Proof 66. It is a Pop 1 with none graded higher. You would've thought, in today's market, such a rare high pop coin would get alot of attention. But it is a recently regraded 65 coin that has been passed around a bit, and is still available in the Heritage after auction sale. It is a happy coin (see my sign-off.)

jom · January 14, 2003 2:15PM

Oh yeah...absolutely! There is no way in hell I buy coins without seeing them. Period. I have been OK with Ebay buys as long as there is a good size picture AND a return policy. With standard coin auctions (Heritage, B&M) you really don't stand a chance without actually seeing the coin in person....that's why I only bid in sales that are related to the Long Beach coin show any more. I miss a lot of good material but I simply will NOT bid unless I can view the lots.

jom

Legend · January 14, 2003 7:17PM

Hey! Quit knocking that 1963 1C!

That coin is helping my business. It woke up up many dormant players who weren't sure what to buy. Monday and Tuesday we sold more Type coins-especially Type coins that we feel have been overlooked to people who couldn't believe what that penny sold for.

Ditto on the 41D and 54 Quarters.

Having this modern stuff so strong actually helps the entire market. Now, series like MS Seated, MS+PR Barbers, Bust Halves, and other "overlooked" areas are being sought out like they deserve. It is amazing to me how many people really payed attention are are reacting intelligently about some of the price records set.

Now, if only the price sheets would react so smart!

Laura Sperber
lsperebr1@hotmail.com

www.legendcoin.com

3 stunning prices at Heritage FUN auction

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