I guess I got burned...hard lesson learned

clevegreg · January 10, 2003 3:17AM

I just got back in the States and was checking on some submissions I sent in to both NGC and PCGS. The PCGS coins were sent in by my wife while I was gone, so I will have to wait awhile on those.

To step back in time, as some of you know, I run an ad in the local paper to buy coins, and have had good results with it...except for this time....

An older lady called and said her husband had passed and saw my ad and wanted to sell his collection. When I got there, it was quite a bit of the usual Proof Sets, etc, plus some really beautiful Toned Morgans that were in the small brown envelopes. There were about 20 or so that were like this, and quite a few that were in 2X2s. Well to make a long story short, she wanted a fairly large premium for the toned coins since her husband had "told her" that these were rare etc. We managed to agree on a price, which was higher than I wanted to pay, but the coins were all MS and looked beautiful.

Fast forward to today, when I checked my submission status at NGC. I had submitted 10 coins in 2 different lots. I was going to wait for the first group to get back before sending the others in, but had my wife send them in at a faster grading tier since the market is going so well.

All 10 of the coins were bagged for questionable toning. Major Ouch. One of the graders at NGC was nice enough to give me an overview of why they bagged them.

The worse news is that I have others at PCGS. Do I call them and have them stop before they start, or what?

I could have bought on HECK of a nice coin for what I paid for the coins, and the grading fees.

Look for some great deals on the problem free coins , Proof and Mint sets etc. that I have to sell to make up for the loss.

Greg

CarlWohlforth · January 10, 2003 3:26AM

Ouch! Thanks for sharing that story. I'm tempted to place an ad and, if I ever do, will try to remember your lesson.

MrKelso · January 10, 2003 3:28AM

That stinks. Sorry for your troubles

Russ · January 10, 2003 3:33AM

<< <i>Do I call them and have them stop before they start, or what? >>

There is always the possibility that NGC is wrong and the coins in at PCGS could get slabbed. Ask them if you'd still incur grading fees if you halted the process.

Russ, NCNE

Bear · January 10, 2003 3:34AM

You really got to watch out for us old folks, we can be really sneaky.

clevegreg · January 10, 2003 3:49AM

I called Charlie and he pulled the submissions of the "questionable" coins for me. All I will have to pay is the shipping costs. Thanks once again to Charlie, he is a great resource at PCGS!!

I will take a real close look at all of the coins once I get them back. I know that I am no expert on toned coins, but I thought I was pretty good at spotting fakes. I'll post some images once I have them back for all of you to critique and laugh at

Greg

LucyBop · January 10, 2003 3:55AM

I think I might have let PCGs either grade or bag them. NCG may not be correct in thier assesment..... But anyways good luck and when you get them back please share some pictures...

BlueCole · January 10, 2003 3:57AM

let us see some pics. . . .as much as we talk about & argue over questionable toning, it's hard to think that they slipped under the AT radar. maybe the graders at NGC just had a bad day. Or, if there's a major coin show near you, i'd take them with me and ask the graders there.

B.

mbbiker · January 10, 2003 4:13AM

edit wrong thread

Placid · January 10, 2003 4:15AM

<< <i>I had him on my fav. Sellers list now that i hear this his name is gone. Thanks for the heads up. >>

Who's that?

MadMarty · January 10, 2003 4:24AM

Was her name Deb??? Was her dead husbands name Herold??

I know the feeling, I bought a real nice 1879-S rev of 78, I sent it into PCGS on a 3 day. Luckly for me most of the graders were at the FUN show (PCGS called to tell me they could not do 3 day). I asked if a grader could look at it and tell me if it would get bodybagged. They said it would for altered surfaces (yes, I'll get my money back for the coin). They did not charge me a grading fee, but did charge me for return shipping. Personally I would let them go through, even grading companys make errors sometimes.

clevegreg · January 10, 2003 4:42AM

No it wasn't Deb ...lol. it was a local person here near Cleveland Ohio. I already had PCGS stop the submission. I really want to take a very close look at 'em, and then decide if I want to send some of them back in. I am already in too deep to incur anymore costs that result in bodybags

Greg

eagle7 · January 10, 2003 4:46AM

You did the right thing by calling Charlie and telling him to pull them. The NGC graders are not having a bad day on ten coins in a row. They are more apt to let AT through than PCGS. PCGS will certainly bodybag those coins. With the fad for toned coins getting into the blowoff category price wise, more and more clever thieves will rip anyone they can for as much as they can. Dont forget how easy it is to crack open an NGC or ANACS holder and slip another coin in and then glue it back up. Lots of AT coins in those holders because of that. Before you spend serious money for a toned coin in one of those holders better have it checked out by the company. Buyer beware.

MadMarty · January 10, 2003 4:46AM

That sucks, I have been lucky in the coins I have been buying. Mostly coffee can collections and I have been getting them for scrap price. I did get some nice toned Morgans from a collection but did not pay a premium for them. They were happy to sell them because they were ugly!!!

Gilbert · January 10, 2003 4:56AM

Dont forget how easy it is to crack open an NGC or ANACS holder and slip another coin in and then glue it back up. Lots of AT coins in those holders because of that.

Never heard that one before; please expound?

stman · January 10, 2003 5:06AM

clevergreg, Although I'm sorry the results of your coins didn't turn out as you had hoped, and sometimes we learn the hard way.

But excuse me for being so blunt but you rolled the dice on this deal and so far you crapped out. This doesn't really mean you got burned.

presleyh · January 10, 2003 5:17AM

I still don't understand toning. When you think about it, it is all artificial. Coins are supposed to be nice and shiney.

K6AZ · January 10, 2003 5:18AM

That's really a drag, sorry to hear you got burnt. But I take it from the title of this thread that is has been a costly lesson.

For others here, be very very careful with toned Morgans. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, only buy them in PCGS, NGC or ANACS slabs.

It is quiet possible the dearly departed was screwed too, AT'ing has been going on since the mid 70s that I am aware of, and probably earlier than that.

gmarguli · January 10, 2003 6:06AM

Dont forget how easy it is to crack open an NGC or ANACS holder and slip another coin in and then glue it back up. Lots of AT coins in those holders because of that.

Since when? I've cracked more than my fair share of slabs (all companies) and with the exception of ACG, it would be near impossible to put the slabs back together. I've had an ACG slab pop half apart so you could take the coin out and put another one in it.

Cutting the slabs produces tell-tale signs.

If it is so easy to reseal these slabs, then we would see it happen often. I haven't heard any major reports of this happening and considering that the average coin deal doesn't have the ability not to blab, I have assume that is practically never happens.

AT coins end up in slabs because the services don't catch the new methods for ATing the coins quick enough. They let a few thru and then figure it out (and buy back their mistakes). Other times the coins are "market acceptable" since the AT isn't too bad. And sometimes they allow it thru because the premium for the coin isn't that much and the toning isn't too far off.

gmarguli · January 10, 2003 6:11AM

clevegreg, what reasons did the NGC grader give?

As for the slabbing services BBing real toned coins as AT, I once had PCGS BB a Spanish Trail as AT even though I know who owned since the day it was purchased from the mint.

Tootawl · January 10, 2003 6:21AM

<< <i>Was her name Deb??? Was her dead husbands name Herold?? >>

That's too funny!!

clevegreg · January 10, 2003 7:20AM

Charlie was kind enough to have one of the PCGS graders take a look at the coins for his opinion on "AT", and told me that they would probably be bagged and in Cahrlies words "I am probably being smart by having the order cancelled". Once agin my Thanks go out to Charlie.!!

I obviously missed something on these coins, and by saying I got burned doesn't mean that the seller was intentionally trying to fool me. I got burned by my own misjudgement of my ability to recognize the real thing.

Who knows, perhaps there are a few that will pass muster at a later time, but sending all of them in together made the "bad" ones stick out and influenced the grader in a negative fashion.

Greg

I guess I got burned...hard lesson learned

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