1970s proof cent tripled die obverse (Sadysta1 find)

coppercoins

Some of you might remember this thread. It discussed a recent find that our fellow member Sadysta1 found in a dealer's junk box. He believed it to be either a doubled or tripled die. Well, he was right. Upon examination of the coin, I found it to be exactly what he had thought. It is listed in the coppercoins files (and soon on the site with Sadysta1 to credit) as 1970S-1DO-002P. It is already listed in the Wexler files as WDDO-029 and in the CONECA files as PR-7-O-I(3).

The tripling shows as two separation lines on all of the obverse devices close to the rim. It is a rotated hub tripling, meaning that the hub was rotated on a center axis with each hubbing subsequent to the first, much like 1955P-1DO-001 or 1972P-1DO-001 (the two famous rotated hub doubled dies). What this creates is like the spokes of a bicycle wheel. The spokes are farther apart toward the tire - thus the doubling in this class is spread farther as you get closer to the rim.

Photos:

The first dramatic photo shows nice tripling in the 7 and 0 of the date, but also shows in the 1 and 9 if you look closely enough.



The second photo shows the extension of the tripling in TRUST.



The third photo shows the same going westward across the motto.



And the final motto shot, showing some of the best separation on the coin.



And finally, the tripling in LIBERTY. Rather dramatic on the L, then barely noticeable on the TY as you get closer to the center of the coin.



I would conservatively estimate the value of this tripled die to be $50. It is listed in PR63RB as a $40 coin, and I do not believe this coin quite makes PR65, but for a 75 cent junk box find, Sadysta1 has made a definite score here!

cladking

Very nice find.

nwcs

Excellent photography. I'd have strain me peepers to make those out without a magnifier. I can imagine just how minute the turn was on the hubbing to just b a r e l y create a visible tripling.

airplanenut

Great find, and, once again, absolutely spectacular photos!

coppercoins

Actually this coin looks quite abnormal even to the naked eye, if you have experience viewing proofs of this era. All of the letters on the obverse are somewhat stretched out of proportion, extra-thick. It isn't until magnificatin is applied that the reason for the difference in appearance becomes obvious. The most noticeable areas (naked eye visible) would be the extra thick horizontal bar of the L in LIBERTY and the 70 of the date.

coppercoins

TTT - Sadysta1 needs to have a chance to see his coin in the marquee lights. I doubt all who would normally comment on a thread like this have seen it.

sadysta1

Wow as usual you are taking some fantastic shots and your in depth knowledge is just amazing. I want to thank you for your amazing detective work. And I have these two words for you:


KEEP IT !!!!!

it's my delayed Christmas present to you for your detective work on my proof.

Merry Christmas buddy, enjoy your new coin!!!!

merz2

Coppercoins
As usual the pics a great !
Kudos to you and sadysta.
Sadysta
You'll soon get top honors as cherrypicker of the year at this rate.

coppercoins

Sadysta1 - One word - thanks!!!!! This coin will really be a show piece in my memorial collection - not a whole lot of proof doubled dies out there to be had, and this is the only tripled die I know of. I've been looking for this one for years with no luck. Now, thanks to you, I don't have to be missing out on this one any more.

Merz - Sadysta1 sure has made some wonderful finds, eh? I hope to catch up soon

sadysta1

You are welcome, this is a good example why we SHOULD go through "junk" boxes. FYI my other two good junk box finds included 1916-D dime in good and 1909-S indian in vf!!! So it doesn't hurt to look!!!!

Coppercoins if you are going to Baltimore in spring summer or fall this year we can catch up!!!

Gilbert

Sadysta1,

Yet another impressive discovery. I agree with Merz, and 2nd the Cherrypicker of the Year honors.

Coppercoins,

Excellent work again. I am thoroughly impressed with your imagery work AND your depth of knowledge regarding this series. I have but one question; okay, two.

... Upon examination of the coin, I found it to be exactly what he had thought. It is listed in the coppercoins files (and soon on the site with Sadysta1 to credit) as 1970S-1DO-002P. It is already listed in the Wexler files as WDDO-029 and in the CONECA files as PR-7-O-I(3). ...

I take it, you're employing your own listings on your website (1970S-1DO-002P). I can't quite figure out the abbreviations, but my question(s): It is apparent there are already more types or listings than the average collector wants to try and track (Wexler, CONECA, FS, etc.); do you think developing yet another may be somewhat like reinventing the wheel? Or, I suppose your listing may be for your very own cataloging, in which case, did you mention it to assist people logging into your site? I guess I'm just curious why someone would want to start yet another listing.

coppercoins

Hello Gilbert,

Yes, the system is of my own creation, and it is very simple. The date comes first, then the mint. Next comes the denomination, then the anomaly type (in thi case "DO" for doubled die obverse). After that comes the die number, and if it's proof a "P" suffix.

Why create yet another system? That's simple too. None of the other systems are completely published, and are for the most part secret. The only way to get a die number attached to a coin from any other source is to pay for the information coin for coin. That can become quite expensive, and I see no reason for it. Especially when many coins people end up sending in for identification are worth less than they are paying for the identification. It's the "attributors'" way of milking the system for as much money as they can get, and I think that's wrong. They take money for attributions claiming it's going toward paying to publish another book, then the books they publish are neither complete nor even detailed enough to serve as an attribution guide. I got my buttload and created a public attribution system.

This public attribution system isn't connected to anyone's name (as is the "W" system for "Wexler"), as that's about the most self-serving thing I can think of. This system isn't hidden away in some file cabinet, where only one or two people have access to it. It is completely published as it is written, and anyone in the world has 100% access to it. The system is also easily portable to other series of coins, simply change the denomination character to match the proper denomination in whole cents. For instance, the first 1943P doubled die obverse quarter would be 1943P-25DO-001.

Eventually the system will be used in a neighborhood of web sites working together to finally provide the information to the collectors that they've been looking for now for a number of years. I already have a seasoned collector of Jefferson nickels working on the series for a sister website, and hope to eventually cover all US coin series.

Yes, there are too many different die systems out there, and yes, they are confusing for new collectors. The difference in cost (free) of using this die system should prove it to be the most successful over time, eventually replacing all those costly "club" systems as the industry standard. And no, I don't mention on the web site that this is a system of my own creation. That's because it doesn't matter who wrote it and developed it. What matters is that it is completely free, and after another three years of my work, it will be complete as well.

Gilbert

Thanks,

I wasn't aware that CONECA, NCADD, etc., required payment to attribute new discoveries. So essentially one has to pay to keep those listing current, even though it is for CONECA and NCADD's benefit. hmmmm

I guess I better look for fine print in the Van Allen/Mallis and Fivaz/Stanton new discoveries procedures, just to be sure.

I always thought you could send in possible new discoveries for free (of course paying for shipping both ways).

coppercoins

Nope, that's absolutely not how it works. Regardless of whether your coin is from a die that's already "known" to their secret files, you pay to have them look at it. They claim the money to go toward processing fees for photography and supplies for the files, and toward publishing the information.

First, digital processing costs nothing, and it's about time they went to it. Silver film, especially for this purpose, is outdated. Secondly, it might settle a bit better with the specialists who fund their fiasco if they would actually publish the findings people send in, but this isn't the case. The latest RPM book published was in 1997 and it doesn't cover over 40% of the more recent finds. The information contained therein is very vague, and the photographs are not useable as attribution photographs. There are no marker photographs, and some of them are not even the right die. The Lincoln cent gets the most attention, lucky me, but those people looking for complete information on other series have to go as far back as 1981 to find a published book of RPMs. Pathetic.

indianabyron

WOW i think that is one awsome coin . My DD 1965 quarter dosent quite compair. To bad i dont get awsome christmas presents like that ..


Byron

coppercoins

Indianabyron - One thing you're missing, though, is that a 1965 DDO quarter is extremely rare and worth a bundle.

sadysta1

CUcoins are you going to slab it?