David-Would you please answer my question directley?
barberlover
Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
Mr. hall, I have tried to use the q. & a. board so i know you saw this question and no Russ the answer he gave in november about removing p.v.c. from a coin [which i agree with] did not speak to the intent of my question. So please don't refer me to it again. Mr. Hall, What is your position on p.c.g.s. grading of dipped coins, even when its only for the purpose of making them look white? also is your position now the same as it was in when you first started p.c.g.s. ? One last thing, before you slab a coin do your graders actualy participate in the dipping of toned coins at customer request before slabbing simply to turn them white even if the coin has no p.v.c. damage ? I am also curious if their was ever a time when you placed a distinction in writing for everyone to see tha you thought there was a difference between cleaning and dipping a coin? I understand many people disagree with me pressing for an answer on this because they either disagree or think my motive is to stir up trouble. I don't beleave i am the only person who feels the way i do about natural versus dipped and while i respect the rights of others to disagree with me , i hope they respect that i have the right to my opionion also. This is very important to me. Mr. Hall, please, answer my questions. thanks, barberlover
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I just got off the phone with him, and he will be calling you personally because this issue is so important.
Russ, NCNE
You have raised an important question, but I think you already know the answer. This stems from
an eternal debate that originated over twenty five years ago and has culminated in the redefining of
terms to include conservation and NCS, as well as net grading. It boils down to this. At least half of
Bust and Barber halves have been cleaned at one time. I can say with confidence that PCGS and NGC
have both graded numerous examples. Grading has evolved to accept certain cleaned coins within
certain series that have not been harshly cleaned. Grading cleaned coins is no longer taboo and the
hobby will continue to evolve.
Best regards,
Brian
I am waiting anxiously for your report on your "Private Conversation"
Hell, David Hall has never sent me a Christmas card, let alone a Private Phone call. Seems your question is direct, and you have left little to no room for squirm.
This should be interesting. Good Thread!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Obviously you didn't get the PCGS grading guide when you signed up. >>
Don,
No, but he did get a link to this thread in the Q&A forum, where Mr. Hall said:
<< <i>Tony...This is not my area of expertise, but I'll give it a shot. If a coin has been lightly cleaned...i.e. lightly dipped, etc....you often cannot tell the coin has been "cleaned." In this instance the grade of the coin is as it appears.
If a coin has been more obviously cleaned, that cleaning will effect its looks, luster, and eye appeal and the degree of negativity will be taken into consideration while assigning a grade. I know this all sounds pretty subjective, but our graders are actually good at drawing the line on cleaning.
If a coin has been "harshly cleaned," then it's body bag time.
As for acetone, in the words of John Dannreuther...unless we had a trained dog on premise, you can't tell is a coin has been acetoned because the acetone evaporates.
That said, if someone acetoned a copper coin and messed up the original color, then the coin would be downgraded or body bagged, depending on the severity of the discoloration...David >>
I guess that's not good enough for him.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>i read and agree with the post in november about cleaning p.v.c. off of coins. >>
His answer says nothing about PVC, but rather addresses cleaning - including dipping - in general. He has already answered your question quite well.
Russ, NCNE
i for one, would like to see something more on the line of like a "stated position", ie,main editorial in
an issue of coin world or something written clearly understandable,etc,etc.
or,........a written addendum to pcgs's policies to clearly address the matter along with pcgs's "do's and dont's" without any ambiguity whatsoever so they tell everyone according to them and any and all
others what crosses the line according to them (pcgs),what's acceptable, what's not,even give some basic examples, etc.
a simple private conservsation or email is simply hearsay and wont do,wont hold up and wont make
anyone stick to any one general standard with regards to this issue.
what ngc has done,(while it does have it's glitches) in founding NCS at least you have some guide to
go by as a rule of what passes, what dont.
While I agree with your basic point that coins should not be dipped, in a way, perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree here. What has been done with dipping since the late 1980's to the present and the whole evolution of what is and is not accepted with respect to enhancing coins can not be changed. That's history... The greater challenge is making the argument to the grading services that they need to have a greater role in discouraging the dipping and cleaning of the original coins that remain. There are those collectors that prefer white coins even though they have been dipped and those collectors that want originality. Unfortunately, there is too much incentive to dip coins to get a higher grade and sell them for more $$. Unfortunately, the collectors that prefer originality are on the wrong side of the $$ that are associated with slabbing in general (consider crack outs, resubmissions etc...).
The real question for Mr. Hall as well as NGC, ANACS and IGC is simply this- Why can't your product (i.e. providing an opinion as to the grade of a coin) include some type of alternative designation for original coins as part of the grade for those collectors that prefer originality instead of coins that have been dipped/scrubbed and do not have a shread of originality left? How many original 1892-s Morgans still exist that grade above AU50? It is a number significantly below what is listed in the population reports...
Even though I am conceding that those collectors that prefer original coins are outnumbered, I still think this is a large enough issue that at least one of the grading services would see value in offering such a designation to collectors. In light of the way coins are traded today, such a bold move would significantly improve the future of the coin industry.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Many dipped coins cannot be detected (particularly moderns), and many previously dipped and retoned coins look fully natural. As for being on the wrong side of the $$$, what do you say about the AT folks who sell manufactured Rembrandt's for exhorbitant prices to folks who love toning (some holdered and undetectable)? I for one certainly prefer attractive original coins, but you are asking the services for a service they cannot perform. Lastly, if the services ever decided not to holder lightly cleaned coins, a very large percentage of the certifiable 19th century coins would go to ANACS. I think PCGS has drawn the line at "visibly cleaned", which is a pretty good standard.
BTW - BarberLover, I didn't mean to break your hump, it's a pretty good question. It is just one which I have already seen answered. I forget sometimes that not everyone has been reading these boards for the last few years.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
If it is impossible to tell if a coin has been dipped, no one can expect PCGS or any company to even consider it. I think there is some basic misunderstanding of dipping and PVC removal in the premise of the question.
Since overdipping will reduce and eventually remove the luster from a coin, they were automatically excluded from higher grades while lightly cleaned coins with the luster fully intact would be graded as the gems they are.
Now of course, grading is in chaos since a dipped MS66 toned monster can turn into an overdipped MS60 with a single application of Jeweluster. Conversely, a lightly dipped MS66 brilliant Morgan will remain an MS66 or possibly even gain a grade because there was no cruddy dull surface revealed when the gunk was removed. No wonder everyone is confused since dealers have been telling them for years that cleaning is BAD and toning is GOOD.
For the record, almost all dealers dip coins to make them more marketable. It is impossible to identify coins that have been correctly dipped. Many dipped coins have since toned and are sold as "original". Most surface damaged coins sold as overdipped are actually heavily oxidized toned coins with the silver sulfide knocked off. And it goes on an on.........
you DO NOT put proofs in soft flips by theMselves EVER,not even for 1 day. muchless a month
something NGC has now made a quite lucritive and valuable service of now....
pcgs ought to follow a lead on that one and suck it up.
of course this is just IMHO
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
If you continue to pursue this beyond a reasonable point (and believe me, baby, we are 'there'), my professional numismatic opinion is that you run the risk of becoming some kind of a 'crank'.
If you were referring to me, which I think you were but I'm not positive, I apologize. If you weren't referring to me then, well, er, never mind.
I was attemtping to tell you in an amusing way that you might be pushing too hard on the topic and therefore ran the risk of being perceived as simply being difficult by Mr. Hall. But of course he could tell you that himself if he thinks so.
Perhaps the points that I am trying to make with respect to dipping and cleaning (I do understand the difference) were not clear and I would like to this opportunity to further explain my thoughts and respond to your questions. (1) I do not endorse dipping coins unless there is a critical reason to do so. An example in which dipping would be appropriate would be if there is PVC residue on the coin. (2) I also share your outrage with those coin doctors that artificially tone a coin for the purpose of enhancing a coin or hiding hairlines. I am just as critical of the "Rembrandts" and such activity just hurts the entire hobby, not just a few collectors that get burned. (3) I never advocated that the grading services should completely withdraw from slabbing lightly cleaned 19th century coins, I just believe that its time that the grading services do something to help preserve original coins. I endorse originality...
My point is that there are high quality original coins that deserve to be designated as such by the grading services instead of allowing them to just treated as average dipped coins that have no originality left. If a quality original coin that is lightly circulated is slabbed, something more than just the coin itself should address the issue of whether or not the coin is original. Currently, the grade assigned by ANACs, NGC or PCGS to the coin at the time it is slabbed does not include this determination. To some collectors, this is an important issue that has been ignored... Not all AU50 to AU58 coins are equal.
Most professional graders that are highly respected and capable of assigning a grade to a coin, in the majority of circumstances, can determine whether lightly circulated coins in the AU50-AU58 range have been dipped. I've been at this for thirty years... and I rarely see an original rare date Morgans such as the '79-cc, '84-s and 92-s slabbed in this grade range that are truly original. I won't even mention the similar problems that exist in all 19th century type coins, INCLUDING GOLD...It is interesting that in all the subsequent posts, there has not even been an effort to address my question as to the remaining population of original 1892-s Morgans that grade AU50 AND HIGHER. I am willing to suggest that less than 40% of the total number slabbed that grade AU50 and higher are truly original.
I will concede that determining originality becomes more problematic in the grade range from MS60 on up as well as for modern coins. However, the designation for original surfaces does not have to be used in all circumstances or for all types of coins, especially modern coins. The primary purpose for the designation is to preserve older type coins, including gold, and to provide as service to satisfy the needs of collectors that seek original coins. (Personally, I do not see a need for this designation on most coins minted after 1935). I recall the PQ (premium quality) designation that was coined by Mr. Bowers that I believe was used by PCGS graders and appeared on the slab at one time, so at least at PCGS there is precedence for designations.
Finally, I am not trying to create an argument or be disrespectful of any opinions that have been expressed by others in this thread. I have learned from others even though there can be opposing views.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I appreciate your opinion, and your approach to this discussion. I agree with your sentiment, but I really don't think what you're asking is technically possible. Many here tend to think of virgin surfaces as having "a nice thick original skin". I understand the look they are describing, but would it be possible to distinguish the original skin from the second surface that emerges on a coin that was dipped 50 years ago? I suppose spectral analysis of the surface would help, and who knows, we may even become that obsessed, but doesn't it make more sense to simply choose examples you believe are suitable for your own collection? I don't say that to be flip, or sarcastic, but aren't you suggesting we add yet another layer of confusion to an already overcomplicated process? What you propose, while aimed at preserving original coins and punishing the curators in and of itself presumes that collectors of 19th century coins cannot distinguish one type from the other, and that the market can't adjust pricing based on the appearance of the coin. Isn't that difference in pricing sufficient? Oh, one last thought, PCGS and NGC both market grade to some degree, so I think grade certainly reflects the coins originality.
BTW - I'm still waiting on an invoice received Dec 3rd, 2002 so I hope not to add too many more designations.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
said, "We don't do that! So I'm thinking yeaaa rrright but said, "Oh, OK.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Ya, it's a dead givaway when every raw and slabbed morgan/peace dollar at a bourse table is brilliant white.
I may be wrong but that's my impression when I see that at a table so I keep on walking.....
to the next table.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection