roxana buys holed coins & gets them repaired. i know the name of the jeweler who does the work (no, not stockton). i'm not a good "internet" investigator, but if you follow this seller's "auctions", you will find what i say to be true.
btw, the person who does the repairs is very, very good. but i know for a fact that quarter IS repaired.
please don't bother w/ this thread if you don't believe me, but what i have stated is true
EDITED to add: i think i do have records, am looking for them now
Looks like a hole has been filled. Left of star 13 on the top of the breast on the obverse , and visible under the clouds below the ES in states on the reverse.
the hole was between "E" & "R" of "liberty". the tail featehrs were re-ingraved as well (look again). the "weak stars" beneath the clouds are ok - as struck for this variety. excellent job - digipic may have been retouched as well to help hide the evidence.
that's the same thing i thought but i hadn't really noticed the obverse. the reverse area you noted is quite clear. the local dealer purchased some gold about three weeks ago that had some soldered areas on the reverse at approximately the same place. probably from being used as jewelry or something. he's a straight shooter so the coins are noted as "soldered" and i think he has them priced at melt. just a shame cause they were $1 and $3 pieces.
found my notes. another member of the ring: dbscoins, aka "james brown". according to my notes, a 3d member of the ring is: mcburger, but i can't find what confirmation i used to connect this last guy. i believe it was through an email from "roxana" that contained a reference to "mcburger", but i do have definite proof of the connection between "roxana" and "james brown"
again, this may look like a bunch of hypothesis on my part, but i assure you , this is a coin doctoring ring
Well now that an accusation has been made, a reputation probably ruined, and the cloud of guilt lowered around this seller, lets hope there is some hard evidence - which should have been presented up front.
This forum is becoming more like a witch hunt everyday, with all the petty inquisitors running around pointing fingers.
Why not the proof, the evidence, the facts up front first? Naw, its better to burn the witch first - oh yes, and post that nobody should bother the accuser if they don't believe him!
I know nothing about this seller, or silver coins - but I hope some people around here know something about fairness!
Burn witch, burn! We'll all sleep better - until the finger points at YOU!
pushkin, what would you consider acceptable proof? i have a receipt from a coin i bought of roxana 2 years ago, 1798 dollar holed & reparied, sold to me as "original". i returned it, but investigated the situation (w/ a little help from my friends). under another account, i purchased an 1806 QUARTER w/ a repaired hole between "E" & "R" of liberty (hint hint) , etc. etc.
if i was not 100% certain, with proof IN HAND (ie, i have examined the coin IN HAND), i would not have posted such a thread. believe me, i do have the documentation to legaly back up my claim, & am comfortable that my documentation would protect me from any potential legal retribution . (the seller has threatened to sue me in the past - to no avail, since as i said, i have documentation.)
I think it's pretty obvious that the hair is not right. The tail feathers should also have more wear given the wear on the coin (esp. the wear on the wings).
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
anyone else find this rather odd? this 1806 coin has appeared on ebay several times. i know, because i have bought it TWICE. the 2d time i bought it was from "james brown"
(forgot to paste this in)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 23:30:42 -0400 From: James Brown <brown9300@worldnet.att.net> To: <dorkkarl> Subject: Re: 1806 Quarter on Ebay
Karl, I apologize for the long delay in getting back to you. ...(deleted personal info)... I can relist the coin with Ebay for you to purchase at the $525 price. I just need to know when you would be available to bid as I would not relist it for a full auction for this price and thus don't want others bidding on it. I will be a little late getting home tomorrow but should be available about 10:00 tomorrow or any other evening this week. Just let me know your availability. Thank you. Roxanna ----- Original Message -----
From: dorkkarl To: brown9300@worldnet.att.net Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 6:56 AM Subject: RE: 1806 Quarter on Ebay
hi, i would honor that price, but would like to buy this through ebay. can you list the coin with a buy-it-now of $525, and i will get it. thanks.
K S
--- On Mon 05/20, James Brown < brown9300@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
> Hello, > You were the high bidder on the > 1806 > Quarter on Ebay but unfortunately it did not meet my reserve price of > $599. I can let you have the coin for your bid of $525 + s/h and > insurance > if you are interested. Please advise. Thank you for your > interest in > my auctions. Roxanna
Looks like she's wearing a nurse's cap. LOL. Real obvious when you compare side-by-side with a undoctored coin. You could have pointed it out sooner, DK. Or are you just pulling everyone's chain
This is impossible!! To think an eBay Powerseller would stoop that low to doctor and shill bid? No way no how.
Congratulations to you for having the balls to point fingers. Too many on this forum wish to remain naive and dumbed down. Afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. And that is exactly what these coin doctors want. And they continue to operate unfettered.
If the legitimate dealers woke up they would see the bad apples are ruining their industry. The more I talk to old timers and keep my eyes / ears open the more I learn about the seamy side of the coin business. It aint pretty folks. But don't take my word for it do your own research and look at facts, conflicts of interest and ask yourself do certain things make sense. When they don't investigate.
But when I logged on all I saw was an acusation with nothing but a link. You could have taken a little more time and posted the "proof" when the acusation was made. Would that have been so difficult? If you want to grab the headlines, OK, but please give us the rest of the story along the headline - why hurt your credibility by not posting your evidence up front?
Thanks for the the warning. Those who chose to be cautious will and those who "want proof" can take the plunge if they like. Myself, I would never buy a raw coin for over $20 from ebay. If this coin is worth $565 then they should pay to have it certified, if they don't then there is a reason.
pushkin, i apologize, you are 100% correct. i jumped the gun by not having all my info collected. this week, i hope to identify FOUR more coin doctors, & will be sure to have the info up front this time.
again, sorry about my screw up.
but the point is, i know you guys are better at investigating this type of thing, or maybe somone else has had experience w/ roxana. i intended this thread as a "heads up", and i am correct about this coin doctor ring.
......a noble effort with a fine explanation. sounds like you were able to return the coin and get your money back. sellers like this really need to have their rock lifted up.
thanks karl. i have no problem eating my piece of humble pie!!
Karl, Pushkin said what I was thinking. You need to present a case before accusing. You may be right, and I applaud efforts on this forum to weed out fraud and scams. I know that you are one to give the benefit of the doubt, so this surprised me a bit.
Can someone post a photo of an undoctored coin so we naive can learn? (edit: oops...I see ccrdragon already did)
No problem, and excuse my strong reaction. I know you usually post very well thought out, accurate information. And, I'll admit that I'm a little sensitve to accusations without proof. As for your research, excellent work.
By the way, to other posters, its a big jump of logic to assume that having doubts or asking for evidence implies a willingness or desire to go out and purchase raw coins.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. With all the traps involved in collecting coins it's amazing people still collect them. Sometimes it seems like it's a witch hunt on here but there are a lot of people out there taking advantage of the uninitiated and the initiated alike. It's hard to know who to trust and who to stay away from. I commend Karl for pointing out the seller.
There is a reason why this guy is selling a good type coin for half of trends. Sometimes if a deal looks too good to be true it is. This is certainly one of those situations.
Pushkin-try to remember that people say a lot of good things about others as well. It's just human nature to talk more about whats wrong than whats right. Sometimes it does seem like a witch hunt but I really think people here are well meaning.
I'd like to use this thread as an illustration as to what I see happening on many threads. Sometimes we are very quick to react to a thread in a direct, somewhat personal way. Granted it would have been nice to have the Karl shared more of what his thoughts were in the very beginning. It certainly would have avoided some of the comment made. However, comments could have been rephrased, such as, Karl what basis for this claim do you have that you can share with us, etc., instead of tossing darts right away. Asking probing questions to get all the facts or ideas laid out might be a better way to approach threads that are more than just guess the grade, or what do you think of my new purchase, not that these are legitimate.
In other words before we become so quick to disagree, let's take the time to probe, ask open ended questions etc., then post our thoughts, based upon more of the story and with a little thought behind what we say. Am I guilty of this, sometimes yes.
Another approach to consider, is: that's a thought provoking idea (even when you don't think it is) but I am unclear what you mean, could you explain it to me or give me an illustration of what you mean. I see that a lot of times this kind of clarification leads to a meeting of them minds. Lastly even if we do disagree there is a way to make this point without using a shotgun, such as, well maybe we will never reach a meeting of the minds on that point, but thanks for sharing the information so I know where you are coming from or at least your viewpoint has given me something to consider.
One caveat: none of the above necessarity applies to trolls or people who just post to aggravate, but I have seen many good posters attacked in here way too quickly.
edited to add: thanks for pointing this out to us Karl
i got nailed by roxy about 2 years ago on a 1798 dollar, holed & pluged. i then started folowing his (it's a guy) auctions very carefully, & a couple of times, i saw his coins pop up for sale - under other seller's id's - with the same digipic's! that is how i tied them all together.
i also have gotten email from all 3 accounts - signed ROXANNA! i remember that i bought a holed coin on ebay once (knowingly), & after i won it, outbidding 1 of the 3 i mentioned. that person then emailed me saying something to the effect of "if you want, i can fix that coin so nobody will ever know it was holed." i cannot find that email, which would reveal the sender's address.
i realize my evidence sounds "sketchy" from your side, but like i said, i've had that coin in-hand twice.
probably not relevant, but this auction sounds a little weird too: KARLA
No Russ, I have just had more experience than a lot of people of inserting my foot into my mouth, comes with old age. Edited to add and raising 4 children through the teenage years.
Mike makes some excellent points about the the appropriateness of civility and contemplation when replying to threads or forming opinions. However, in instances where accusations are made about someone's honesty, the legality of their actions, about their reputation, it is human nature to too often assume that accusation implies guilt. Once a person's reputation has been smeared with words like criminal, liar, thief, sinner or what have you, it is often impossible to restore the reputation to its former status, even if the accusations turn out to be totally false and words of civility are offered later. Accusers can just walk away, but the the accused is left with an aura of guilt and shame that may never go away. I have no problem coming down strongly and harshly when accusations that can damage reputations are made without evidence being presented. Civility and moderation, unfortunately will not repair the damage that can be done by false accusation. This forum has done some outstanding work exposing fraud, uncovering unethical behavior, and making efforts to improve the hobby by presenting fact rather than hype. However, all that good work can be badly tarnished if we also are not diligent in ensuring that both our actions and methods are fair. I personally don't believe in "moderation in defense of the innocent", and note, I'm only saying the innocent - present evidence - prove accusations, and I have no problem with punishing the guilty.
shiro, you can tell where text was cut & pasted into both auction listings:
<< <i>I have attached a high resolution scan. Please use it when determining your bid and there should be no reasons for returns. Cashier's checks and Money Orders get immediate shipping. Personal checks will delay shipment a minimum of 10 days. Credit cards accepted through Paypal.com (preferred method of payment). See link below this description. Shipping and handling of $3.50 + actual insurance charges >>
what're the odds that 2 DIFFERENT people would use precisely that same wording? yes, possible, but i doubt it. other text is identical as well
Edited to ad: Although the pictures no longer show, you can click on the "red box" and still get the properties. Both roxanna and goody2too use the same provider. Hmmmmm.
ok, i don't have the technical wizardry or inspector know-how to add anything else of value to this thread. y'all are a lot better at it than me, so take my claim for what its worth. my only purpose really is to give a heads up, & maybe it'll save someone from being nailed by a bona-fide coin doctor.
A new die variety! That extra tuft of hair at the top is not in my Browning book, neither is those strange looking tailfeathers. Must be an R.9.
Good catch, much appreciated.
That "1801" half auctioned by "Turkey Creek Coins" I posted about a few weeks ago was an altered 1807 O-105. I contacted the winning bidder ($515!), he thanked me for the warning and said he would be more careful in the future.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
I'm bring back up to the top as Roxana cancelled the auctions early. Roxanna's Auctions Seemed odd to me that one day we're talking about them and the next day they're gone. DK, you mentioned that you thought he/she was on the board or knew somebody here. Maybe there was a tip off. Anyway, the Doctor is out.
Comments
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
K S
al h.
btw, the person who does the repairs is very, very good. but i know for a fact that quarter IS repaired.
please don't bother w/ this thread if you don't believe me, but what i have stated is true
EDITED to add: i think i do have records, am looking for them now
K S
Left of star 13 on the top of the breast on the obverse , and visible under the clouds below the ES in states on the reverse.
Ray
K S
that's the same thing i thought but i hadn't really noticed the obverse. the reverse area you noted is quite clear. the local dealer purchased some gold about three weeks ago that had some soldered areas on the reverse at approximately the same place. probably from being used as jewelry or something. he's a straight shooter so the coins are noted as "soldered" and i think he has them priced at melt. just a shame cause they were $1 and $3 pieces.
al h.
again, this may look like a bunch of hypothesis on my part, but i assure you , this is a coin doctoring ring
K S
Well now that an accusation has been made, a reputation probably ruined, and the cloud of guilt lowered around this seller, lets hope there is some hard evidence - which should have been presented up front.
This forum is becoming more like a witch hunt everyday, with all the petty inquisitors running around pointing fingers.
Why not the proof, the evidence, the facts up front first? Naw, its better to burn the witch first - oh yes, and post that nobody should bother the accuser if they don't believe him!
I know nothing about this seller, or silver coins - but I hope some people around here know something about fairness!
Burn witch, burn! We'll all sleep better - until the finger points at YOU!
if i was not 100% certain, with proof IN HAND (ie, i have examined the coin IN HAND), i would not have posted such a thread. believe me, i do have the documentation to legaly back up my claim, & am comfortable that my documentation would protect me from any potential legal retribution . (the seller has threatened to sue me in the past - to no avail, since as i said, i have documentation.)
K S
Anaconda
I think it's pretty obvious that the hair is not right. The tail feathers should also have more wear given the wear on the coin (esp. the wear on the wings).
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
further evidence wanted? LOOK HERE
1806 QUARTER
ANOTHER 1806 QUARTER
anyone else find this rather odd? this 1806 coin has appeared on ebay several times. i know, because i have bought it TWICE. the 2d time i bought it was from "james brown"
(forgot to paste this in)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 23:30:42 -0400
From: James Brown <brown9300@worldnet.att.net>
To: <dorkkarl>
Subject: Re: 1806 Quarter on Ebay
Karl,
I apologize for the long delay in getting back to you. ...(deleted personal info)...
I can relist the coin with Ebay for you to purchase at the $525 price. I just need to know when you would be available to bid as I would not relist it for a full auction for this price and thus don't want others bidding on it. I will be a little late getting home tomorrow but should be available about 10:00 tomorrow or any other evening this week. Just let me know your availability. Thank you. Roxanna
----- Original Message -----
From: dorkkarl
To: brown9300@worldnet.att.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 6:56 AM
Subject: RE: 1806 Quarter on Ebay
hi, i would honor that price, but would like to buy this through ebay. can you list the coin with a buy-it-now of $525, and i will get it. thanks.
K S
--- On Mon 05/20, James Brown < brown9300@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
> Hello,
> You were the high bidder on the
> 1806
> Quarter on Ebay but unfortunately it did not meet my reserve price of
> $599. I can let you have the coin for your bid of $525 + s/h and
> insurance
> if you are interested. Please advise. Thank you for your
> interest in
> my auctions. Roxanna
K S
This is impossible!! To think an eBay Powerseller would stoop that low to doctor and shill bid?
Congratulations to you for having the balls to point fingers. Too many on this forum wish to remain naive and dumbed down. Afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. And that is exactly what these coin doctors want. And they continue to operate unfettered.
If the legitimate dealers woke up they would see the bad apples are ruining their industry. The more I talk to old timers and keep my eyes / ears open the more I learn about the seamy side of the coin business. It aint pretty folks. But don't take my word for it do your own research and look at facts, conflicts of interest and ask yourself do certain things make sense. When they don't investigate.
Great job dorkarl!
But when I logged on all I saw was an acusation with nothing but a link. You could have taken a little more time and posted the "proof" when the acusation was made. Would that have been so difficult? If you want to grab the headlines, OK, but please give us the rest of the story along the headline - why hurt your credibility by not posting your evidence up front?
again, sorry about my screw up.
but the point is, i know you guys are better at investigating this type of thing, or maybe somone else has had experience w/ roxana. i intended this thread as a "heads up", and i am correct about this coin doctor ring.
K S
thanks karl. i have no problem eating my piece of humble pie!!
al h.
Can someone post a photo of an undoctored coin so we naive can learn? (edit: oops...I see ccrdragon already did)
Thanks!
Karl,
No problem, and excuse my strong reaction. I know you usually post very well thought out, accurate information. And, I'll admit that I'm a little sensitve to accusations without proof. As for your research, excellent work.
By the way, to other posters, its a big jump of logic to assume that having doubts or asking for evidence implies a willingness or desire to go out and purchase raw coins.
There is a reason why this guy is selling a good type coin for half of trends. Sometimes if a deal looks too good to be true it is. This is certainly one of those situations.
Pushkin-try to remember that people say a lot of good things about others as well. It's just human nature to talk more about whats wrong than whats right. Sometimes it does seem like a witch hunt but I really think people here are well meaning.
Look at ccrdragons response on page 1. There's a link to Anaconda's 1806 on eBay.
BTW, Karl. How did you happen to buy this coin twice? Was it once from roxanna and once from james brown?
K S
I'm trying!!!
Russ, NCNE
K S
In other words before we become so quick to disagree, let's take the time to probe, ask open ended questions etc., then post our thoughts, based upon more of the story and with a little thought behind what we say. Am I guilty of this, sometimes yes.
Another approach to consider, is: that's a thought provoking idea (even when you don't think it is) but I am unclear what you mean, could you explain it to me or give me an illustration of what you mean. I see that a lot of times this kind of clarification leads to a meeting of them minds. Lastly even if we do disagree there is a way to make this point without using a shotgun, such as, well maybe we will never reach a meeting of the minds on that point, but thanks for sharing the information so I know where you are coming from or at least your viewpoint has given me something to consider.
One caveat: none of the above necessarity applies to trolls or people who just post to aggravate, but I have seen many good posters attacked in here way too quickly.
edited to add: thanks for pointing this out to us Karl
You've attended quite a few management seminars, I see.
Russ, NCNE
What are your links to dbscoins with these people?
What does the guy selling coins from Ireland living in Oregon have to do with this ring?
Does dbscoins buy the tools needed for this ring? Needlenose pliers, lock-ring pliers, 7"polishing grinder, 1/2" hemmerdrill, razorblades?
Is it possible Roxanna bought the coin just like you did but is now trying to sell it?
All of these possibilities have me intrigue -> could you tie them together for me?
i got nailed by roxy about 2 years ago on a 1798 dollar, holed & pluged. i then started folowing his (it's a guy) auctions very carefully, & a couple of times, i saw his coins pop up for sale - under other seller's id's - with the same digipic's! that is how i tied them all together.
i also have gotten email from all 3 accounts - signed ROXANNA! i remember that i bought a holed coin on ebay once (knowingly), & after i won it, outbidding 1 of the 3 i mentioned. that person then emailed me saying something to the effect of "if you want, i can fix that coin so nobody will ever know it was holed." i cannot find that email, which would reveal the sender's address.
i realize my evidence sounds "sketchy" from your side, but like i said, i've had that coin in-hand twice.
probably not relevant, but this auction sounds a little weird too: KARLA
K S
READ THE TEXT from the following two ads:
GOODY2TOO
ROXANNA
anything jump out at ya? NOW whaddya think?
K S
BTW, shouldn't you say the coin doctor was "thumbed" instead of "fingered"?
Obscurum per obscurius
Mike makes some excellent points about the the appropriateness of civility and contemplation when replying to threads or forming opinions. However, in instances where accusations are made about someone's honesty, the legality of their actions, about their reputation, it is human nature to too often assume that accusation implies guilt. Once a person's reputation has been smeared with words like criminal, liar, thief, sinner or what have you, it is often impossible to restore the reputation to its former status, even if the accusations turn out to be totally false and words of civility are offered later. Accusers can just walk away, but the the accused is left with an aura of guilt and shame that may never go away. I have no problem coming down strongly and harshly when accusations that can damage reputations are made without evidence being presented. Civility and moderation, unfortunately will not repair the damage that can be done by false accusation. This forum has done some outstanding work exposing fraud, uncovering unethical behavior, and making efforts to improve the hobby by presenting fact rather than hype. However, all that good work can be badly tarnished if we also are not diligent in ensuring that both our actions and methods are fair. I personally don't believe in "moderation in defense of the innocent", and note, I'm only saying the innocent - present evidence - prove accusations, and I have no problem with punishing the guilty.
<< <i>I have attached a high resolution scan. Please use it when determining your bid and there should be no reasons for returns. Cashier's checks and Money Orders get immediate shipping. Personal checks will delay shipment a minimum of 10 days. Credit cards accepted through Paypal.com (preferred method of payment). See link below this description. Shipping and handling of $3.50 + actual insurance charges >>
what're the odds that 2 DIFFERENT people would use precisely that same wording? yes, possible, but i doubt it. other text is identical as well
K S
<< <i>Edited to add and raising 4 children through the teenage years. >>
Better than all the seminars on earth - combined.
Russ, NCNE
Edited to ad: Although the pictures no longer show, you can click on the "red box" and still get the properties. Both roxanna and goody2too use the same provider. Hmmmmm.
K S
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Good catch, much appreciated.
That "1801" half auctioned by "Turkey Creek Coins" I posted about a few weeks ago was an altered 1807 O-105. I contacted the winning bidder ($515!), he thanked me for the warning and said he would be more careful in the future.
Even though I refuse to buy raw coins on Ebay I appreciate you bringing this to the attention on the boards.
Let me say this, ROXANNA & GOODY2TWO and the likes are the lowest form of scum on the earth.
TTT it needs to be there for awhile.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
A week later: We need more proof!
Moral: Dont mess with powersellers and those who have others snowed!
some comments concerning him was for me not fair
sincerely michael
Seemed odd to me that one day we're talking about them and the next day they're gone. DK, you mentioned that you thought he/she was on the board or knew somebody here. Maybe there was a tip off. Anyway, the Doctor is out.