I'm almost speachless>> picture link below also

Wisconsin

But very psssed again today. I am sure you read last weeks thread about a body bagged coin being slabbed the 2nd time. Well today I had it go the other way. I cracked a nice AU58 trade dollar from an old PCGS slab. Tradedollarnut owned this one at one time, and thought it may go MS62 if resubmitted. Well I wanted a new holder so thought what the heck I will take a shot at the grading while it is there. BODYBAGGED!!!! Cleaned!! There is absolutely no reason to believe PCGS anymore. They are back and forth in and out of slabs.

Tradedollarnut. I hope you can add to how nice this coin is. I can't figure it out.

Jay

tradedollarnut

Not only can I add to how nice it was, but so can the others who bid you up on it.

I honestly felt the coin was an MS62 by today's standards. And there was no indication that the coin was cleaned - after all, it was in a PCGS slab.

Endocrinologist

Sorry to hear about that. Maybe submitting for regrade in the original holder might have been more conservative. How about sending it to ANACS?

Wisconsin

Yes,
It would have been more conservative to send in the holder. Why though. This coin was already in their hoder, so why would it not come back in one again?? This is the what bothers me.

I have a coin I received this week as Au53 that was last months body bag. Now I have one of their Au58's in a body bag. Will this degree of inaccuracy continue?

What security do you with slabbed coins?? They may never grade this way again, or even grade for that matter, so why do we value their opinion so much?? In this same group I sent in a draped bust 1/2 cent. ANACS au50. I figured it for that, even if tough they should go XF45 for sure.......Nope VF35..

Check out the link and tell me where I was wrong>>

Link

keets

one thing i've always been curious about with any grading service is whether each grader grades any coins that come into the service. being professionals it's sensible to expect the graders at PCGS to be able to grade each and every U.S. coin series. at the same time, i would personally want someone grading a trade dollar or a half cent to be quite experienced with those particular coins and i sometimes wonder about that. those series just don't have the submission numbers that say, morgans do. maybe irrelevant, but something i've wondered about.

another thing with body bags that gets me is that it would seem sensible and not asking for much if an explanation of some type were given when a coin is rejected in addition to what's given. in this case, that might be a short explanation as to why they say cleaned.

i can understand the logic of cracking a coin to avoid what i perceive as bias, but it really sucks when that ends up like this. they relly have left no other recourse than to resubmit the coin. what will your strategy be? by you again, another dealer, after a phone call?

al h.

Wisconsin

keets,

I am not sure what my next move will be. I will probably send the coin to a dealer friend of mine and have him look at it, and maybe send it in for me. This is quite the frustrating process. I am caught up in the hype of thinking everything needs to be slabbed, and I know that is a poor deal overall. After all the coin will still be the same no matter what.

What have some of you done with coins like this?? I sent my last body bag in and had it holdered. Problem is I am collecting a lot of $300 coins and when you start submitting mulitiple times, it gets too expensive for the coin. There is a lot to be said for only buying graded coins, but there are many great unslabbed coins out there, and I see why now. From a dealers standpoint it is not worth doing.

Jay

keithdagen

Jay,

I was an underbidder on that piece, and thought that it had killer eye appeal. I had bid to it to about MS-60 prices because I thought it was that nice. TDN later explained his opinion that it should MS-62 and I agreed with him. Sorry to hear about PCGS' inability to grade coins. It's amazing how inconsistent they have become.

Wisconsin

Keith,

I love the coin, and it will always be one of my favorites. Thanks for the reassurance that there is nothing wrong with the coin. I don't know what they are up to lately, but it sure is frustrating to me.

Jay

Russ

They are just as inconsistent with moderns. Recent example: I cracked out a PCGS PR65CAM Accented Hair, and re-submitted it. For some reason, the cameo strangely disappeared and it came back as a 67. Dropping a CAM designation from a coin slabbed by another grading service is one thing, but if it was a CAM when they graded it the first time, why was it not the second time?

I also sent this one back with documentation, asking for at least an explanation as to what happened. Know what I got? A charge to my credit card, and the coin back with no explanation.

Russ, NCNE

Loki

<< <i>It's amazing how inconsistent they have become. >>

Inconsistancy, whether built-in to the grading process or not, is the basis of their on-going thriving enterprise. Crack-outs make up a substantial portion of their revenue. If consistent grading were the norm, this company would have folded long ago due to customer satisfaction of their end-product, the coin's accurate grade as perceived by the numismatic population. Ever read the book "So Where are the Customer's Yachts"? The book's subject matter was about Stock Brokers and their clients. Substitute "Customer's" for "Collector's" and the meaning remains the same. In that regard, how much of your collector money goes purchasing a coin vs a holder or opinionated grade? These are just my thoughts and not meant to be construed as factual. No slander is implied.

I see a bunch of negative posts about grading companies and their practices here. Yet I see an equal amount of posts about crackouts and whatnot. In the end, is it really worth the money and aggrovation to crack-out resend, crack-out, resend, etc. only to be left disappointed and frustrated at the outcomes of the opinions that others perceived about your coin, biased or otherwise? Why not just enjoy a great coin that you purchased rather than worry about what the number on the holder says it is? It is just someone's opinion, nothing more, nothing less, and it will save you a bunch of money and you won't have to keep a constant supply of Pepto-Dismal in your medicine cabinet.

DHeath

Jay,

Man, that's frustrating. It wears on you and stays with you for a while, and eventually you begin to question the value of having your coins graded. I offer this not as a defense or rationalization of any of the services grading practices, but I have come to believe we (the market) take the services way too seriously. We pay $10-$30 to have a professional grader look at the coin, certify its authenticity, and render an opinion that they're willing to take some financial responsibility for. Additionally, they holder the coin, which affords some protection. Wrongly, the market takes their opinion as financial advice. The market rewards the holder with ridiculous premiums. It isn't just PCGS - BTW. I think their opinion is usually pretty good, and better than many collectors by virtue of the sheer volume of coins they examine and compare, but after all, it is a $15 consultation. The insanity begins when the holdered coin is sold, and we're to blame. If we know that all the holder really gives us is a $15 opinion, why oh why will we pay 10x-20x premiums for a single holder grade point difference. PCGS says plainly in their grading guide that they will indeed certify cleaned coins, as long as they are not harshly cleaned, and acknowledges that many older coins have been cleaned at one point in their lives. Their grading of late seems to be less consistent regarding these coins. My only advice (not just to you and me Jay) is that none of us should take any of the opinions as immutable truths. Whatever you do, don't let the experience change your opinion of the coin, or sell it away for less than its real worth. It is still the same coin you bought. There are a whole cadre of dealers who profit by finding and buying the undergrades. They realize no service is perfect or consistent.

Look at the holder insanity below -

1972-S MS68 PCGS Ike
1972-S MS69 NGC Ike

Dog97

Man that's really a bummer but that's the way it goes when you play the crackout game. When you crack it out all bets are off and you're on your own & anything can happen.

gemseeker

yet another example of the shifting sands of grading. I think it would be nice to specify who you want to grade your coins. So that certain graders in a given company can be "put on notice" IMHO

CLASSICS

<< <i>They are just as inconsistent with moderns. Recent example: I cracked out a PCGS PR65CAM Accented Hair, and re-submitted it. For some reason, the cameo strangely disappeared and it came back as a 67. Dropping a CAM designation from a coin slabbed by another grading service is one thing, but if it was a CAM when they graded it the first time, why was it not the second time?

I also sent this one back with documentation, asking for at least an explanation as to what happened. Know what I got? A charge to my credit card, and the coin back with no explanation.

Russ, NCNE >>

.............what a joke, why dont you send them a bill just for the fun of it and let them scratch thier heads as to what it is for?

RGL

It -- PCGS inconsistency and current We-never-met-a-coin-we-liked screw tightening on grades -- is maddening. I guess I was on the early end of this learning curve. Remember my 1954 CAM Franklin proof, the nice digital photo of which most board members graded very nicely that came back as a PR-63? This coin was described by a very reputable dealer -- probably one of the top cameo proof dealers behind Rick Tomaska -- as at least 65 CAM. And, I would have been happy with that ... but ... This dealer then went on to say in all his time, he never has seen PCGS more stingy with its grades and has dealers nationwide wondering what in blue blazes is going on ... Consistency is the key, PCGS. A coin should not change grades due to differing standards, graders, etc. A 10-second coin review for $15? Be thankful they do not look longer!

And, in answer to fellow Buckeye Keets, I have asked this question before. The answer is, no, particular coins are NOT routed to particular graders who may have expertise in a particular series. It's luck of the draw. A grader can be passing judgment on a 2002 proof and then on then on the next coin, be grading a great rarity.

halfnut

BUT like sheep being hearded by a good hearding dog we keep going back and back again, If this service is so bad lately then why do we keep using them. I read a post amost everyday now with some one that has been raked over the coals sending coins in but what happens after the venting is done yeppp right back to using this sevice. I do collect PCGS MS Kennedys and have a few coins that just don't look to be right for the grade and yes I'm guilty to I go right back to buying these. I have never sent a coin in to be graded from PCGS and most likly never will. ( I have used the other service - NGC and was quite pleased with them). SO what are we to do I have no anwser to that, they have us hooked and if a slight change in grading standards is what they want to do then they know they can because after all the venting is done the sheep will be back. Sorry to see a nice coin come back in a Body Bag Wisconsin. I will go back under my rock now and hug my set.

Edit to say -hope this post does not make me have to go to the head of the class Monday, I would hate to have to come out from under my rock in front of the entire class

its4real

I recently read (from a disgruntled collector) that the grading companies were artificially creating populations in the higher grades. This article went on to say that ALL rare coins have ALREADY been submitted and that the only way grading companies can stay in business is to keep changing grades on coins they have ALREADY graded.

Think about it.

The article went on to say that you could take ANY nice MS coin - submit it 10 times - and get a mixture of MS-62 to MS66 - AND a "cleaned" and/or bodybagged or 2. Then there is the occasional "gift" at 67 that keeps everyone coming back for more....

Intreresting article. AND after seeing your post - a bit more believeable.

Gilbert

Couldn't you just have keep it in its original slab and appreciated an undergraded coin?

Who did you need to convince it was a MS62?

Obviously (it seems) TDN felt it was better than AU and got paid what he felt was satisfactory (I hope). You could have also (if that was your intent) sold the coin for whatever money you felt was appropriate regardless what the slab says, by simply NOT TAKING less than you feel itw worth.

None of this was said maliciously. I just boggles my mind that people won't accept that trying to get more than you bargained for, can get you more than you bargained for.

BTW, cracking the slab, no matter whose, VOIDS your guarantee, or rather, the coin's grade and authenticity is guaranteed as long as you don't tamper with the slab. What is inconsistent about that.

prooflike

Gilbert, you make a lot of sense in that it was sort of senseless to crack it out, which involved risk.

Maybe the crackout game is akin to gambling... Crackouts Anonymous anyone?

jhar

<< <i>Well I wanted a new holder so thought what the heck I will take a shot at the grading while it is there. >>



You took a shot and missed. Why is that PCGS's fault? The grader who looked at your coin is not the grader who looked at it originally. This grader obviously noted something he took to be "Cleaning". I don't know why people fail to understand that PCGS offers an opinion about the coin's grade/condition/authenticity. This opinion may not be the same opinion they had originally.

If you just wanted a new holder, you could have just spent $5 on the reholder service and not had this grief.

tradedollarnut

There should have been no gamble in cracking the coin. AU58 should have been the lowest potential grade. Body bag is simply inconceivable for that coin.

The reason I didn't crack it is the same reason I won't try to cross coins much anymore: PCGS seems to be missing the dartboard a bit and I just didn't need the aggravation of something just like this happening!

halfnut

bump from the buired post grave yard ( blame it on Russ )