Stiffed by Board Member??
Wingsrule
Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭✭
I debated for quite awhile before writing this - just thought I would share my thoughts with other board members and see what they had to say about it.
About six weeks ago, I received a totally unsolicited email making an offer for one of the PR70DC Commems I have in my modern type set. The offer was for $xxx for the coin, or $yyy for the coin plus a different MS70 commem. My choice of offers. The offer was very clear, and the potential buyer even quoted me the premium over sheet, so I knew he was aware of current prices, etc.
Since only the coin number is visible in the registry sets, I sent an email verifying the date/MM of the coin in question. Yep, we were talking the same item. I accepted the cash offer.
Buyer is excited, I'm excited. I make provisions to get a 70 to replace the one I just 'sold' (didn't like the commem that was offered) and fire off a check for my new baby. Get my replacement, make a few commitments with the balance of the funds (including some to fellow boarders) and anxiously check my PO box for a check.
Days pass. Has the check been sent yet? Real busy, I'll get to it in the next few days. Sent yet? Not yet, but give me your home address and I'll Fedex it. No thanks, regular mail to my POB is fine. Sent yet? Finally (almost a month after first contact) - Mailed it Friday, you should have it Tuesday or Wednesday.
Nothing Wednesday. Or Thursday.
Now it's about a 15-minute drive to the PO, 15 mins back. By now, I have several hours of my own time invested as well. I like this PO because they're open from 6am to midnight, so it is pretty easy to get stuff done on my schedule.
Time for another email - Please stop payment on original funds, Fedex new check to me at work, and knock $50 off to cover your bank/postage fees. That was 4 days ago - never received a response.
So here I am, with several shekels out of my pocket (for the replacement 70 and other items) and commitments on a few other things. I can cover those costs without the sale, but it means dipping into my savings and it will make things difficult for awhile. I even took a half day off work to make sure I could get to the bank before they closed to get it out of the safe depsoit box.
Never heard any kind of "oops I offered you too much, will you accept $zzz instead" or any other comments that might indicate a change in heart. Says he mailed the check and when I get it, cash it, and send the coin. Which I will do - if it ever shows up.
In the meantime - I do some homework and find out he is a board member. Has been logged on several times in the past few days. It would be interesting to get a response.
I still haven't decided whether to post his name here or not - maybe I'll wait a few MORE days and see what happens at the PO. Wouldn't want anyone else to have to put up with this BS.
About six weeks ago, I received a totally unsolicited email making an offer for one of the PR70DC Commems I have in my modern type set. The offer was for $xxx for the coin, or $yyy for the coin plus a different MS70 commem. My choice of offers. The offer was very clear, and the potential buyer even quoted me the premium over sheet, so I knew he was aware of current prices, etc.
Since only the coin number is visible in the registry sets, I sent an email verifying the date/MM of the coin in question. Yep, we were talking the same item. I accepted the cash offer.
Buyer is excited, I'm excited. I make provisions to get a 70 to replace the one I just 'sold' (didn't like the commem that was offered) and fire off a check for my new baby. Get my replacement, make a few commitments with the balance of the funds (including some to fellow boarders) and anxiously check my PO box for a check.
Days pass. Has the check been sent yet? Real busy, I'll get to it in the next few days. Sent yet? Not yet, but give me your home address and I'll Fedex it. No thanks, regular mail to my POB is fine. Sent yet? Finally (almost a month after first contact) - Mailed it Friday, you should have it Tuesday or Wednesday.
Nothing Wednesday. Or Thursday.
Now it's about a 15-minute drive to the PO, 15 mins back. By now, I have several hours of my own time invested as well. I like this PO because they're open from 6am to midnight, so it is pretty easy to get stuff done on my schedule.
Time for another email - Please stop payment on original funds, Fedex new check to me at work, and knock $50 off to cover your bank/postage fees. That was 4 days ago - never received a response.
So here I am, with several shekels out of my pocket (for the replacement 70 and other items) and commitments on a few other things. I can cover those costs without the sale, but it means dipping into my savings and it will make things difficult for awhile. I even took a half day off work to make sure I could get to the bank before they closed to get it out of the safe depsoit box.
Never heard any kind of "oops I offered you too much, will you accept $zzz instead" or any other comments that might indicate a change in heart. Says he mailed the check and when I get it, cash it, and send the coin. Which I will do - if it ever shows up.
In the meantime - I do some homework and find out he is a board member. Has been logged on several times in the past few days. It would be interesting to get a response.
I still haven't decided whether to post his name here or not - maybe I'll wait a few MORE days and see what happens at the PO. Wouldn't want anyone else to have to put up with this BS.
0
Comments
Hopefully, everything will work out.
On a differant form I visit they have a section of the forum called "The good, the bad, the ugly"
This is a area to tell about your experiences (Good or Bad) with dealers, sellers, and individuals you've bought, sold, and traded with.
It seems to work really well and I wish this forum would have something like it.
It makes it easy to check up on members befor you do any trading with them.
I wish you luck,
Edited:
BTW, I think you should post the members name. That help when there is this type of problem on the other forum I visit.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I hope I can afford it.
I hope I can get the money.
I hope my sister will loan me the moeny.
I hope....I hope...
Unfortunate for you that the "I hope" apparently didn't come through this time.
This guy DOES want the coin - in a bad way. BUT, he doesn't have the money or he would have paid you already.
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
With that aside, if the member never sent the payment, all of the above doesn't matter. Maybe the member thought they had the money available for the coin, and it turned out they did not. It can happen, but one would expect some truthfulness in the situation. I hope it works out for you.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
JP - Thanks, and that might just happen.
Lucy - I have had many dealings with many members of this board and have had nothing but success (until now).
Kranky - It's on my 'to-do' list.
BigD5 - I thought about that possibility, which is why I suggested to stop payment on the check and issue a new one, delivered by Fedex and reducing the purchase price to compensate for the additional cost. Fedex was originally his idea, not mine. I was satisfied with the good old USPS.
Robert - I agree completely. The replacement was out of pocket. Some of the other things were out of pocket. Some of the 'commitments' are still in the near future. I guess I assume when my boss says I'll get a paycheck next week, I believe him. As far as the 'money I didn't have' - if I couldn't have backed up those commitments (regardless of where the funds came from) I wouldn't have made them in the first place.
Mark
If you are 100% positive that your summary of the facts is correct, I see nothing wrong with posting the guy's name on the board - I think he has earned it!. First, I would nicely give him one more deadline to either complete the transaction or come clean.
One last thought - if he is a decent fellow (that is currently a big IF in my eyes) and can't pay you for what he bargained for, he should pay you at least a little something for your time and trouble expended.
since i got the coins from there web site and can not leave feedback i am doing it here..........
Mark
Let me say first that I find those who do not fulfill commitments, who break promises, to be of the lowest form. I'm very old-fashioned in that I believe a man's word is his bond, and that nothing is more important than honesty and integrity. If I die with nothing else, I will die with those intact. This one is loathsome.
That said, you bet on the come and now you're dealing with the consequences. You did not get "stiffed" as your title says, since no transaction was completed. You should never assume that others involved in a transaction are as forthright as you. It is a sad fact that doing so may frequently find you in the boat in which you now reside.
<< <i>You should notify the postal authorities for good measure at once as this sounds like it involves a great deal of money, they don't take to postal fraud very lightly. >>
Unless I'm reading his post incorrectly, there is no fraud since he didn't ship the coin.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Lucy was offered some nice Rosies by a board member, >>
No one wants to P-off Lucy, the last thing I want tis to have here tell the world that I ripped here off on a radio show!!!
But all in all, that really sucks. Sometimes things fall through the cracks, but the buyer should uphold his end of the bargin. Maybe it's time for Ms. Coinboard to give the member a whack with here ruler!!!
<< <i>No one wants to P-off Lucy, the last thing I want tis to have here tell the world that I ripped here off on a radio show!!! >>
You'd be surprised and how many Dj's across the Country that Lucy provides music for.....Often, want list's get sent this way and Lucy tries to fill them........
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Offer was made. Offer was accepted. Buyer didn't send payment over a 6 week period of time. That certainly qualifies as a royal case of getting "stiffed" in my book!! What do you all think?
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
From me experiences with board members, it's almost all been great. The only deal that wasn't was one where a forum member indicated he wanted to purchase some coins I had on the B/S/T board and I never received payment. A few PMs back and forth didn't get it done. After a couple of days of not getting it done I gave up and never expected to receive the payment. It was only about $50 worth of coins and I gave up on trying to complete the deal. It wasn't enough money to deal with the hassle. The coins will get sold on eBay instead.
Wingsrule: POST THEIR NAME HERE. It'll help everyone else. No need to deal with a deadbeat.
Tyler
Nobody can post that I have ever been dishonest or deceitful in a deal and if a member exhibits such behavior his name should be posted here so I know not to fool with him.
I do stuff like mailing coins BEFORE I get paid or before I even deposit the checks simply because the buyers are members here but I won't be doing that any more if I may be setting myself up for a con job.
Buy a new dictionary. They added a this word in 1950.
Main Entry: stiff
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1950
1 a : to refuse to pay or tip <stiffed the doctor for the fee> <stiffed the waiter> b : CHEAT <stiffed him in a business deal> c : STICK <stiffed us with the bar bill>
2 : SNUB <stiffed sportswriters after the game>
M-W Dictionary Entry for 'stiffed'
<< <i>Offer was made. Offer was accepted. >>
And, no goods changed hands, so nobody was cheated - which is the definition of "stiffed". The other party involved is, as I've already stated, loathsome and not somebody that anyone should do business with. But, he did not cheat Wingsrule.
Russ, NCNE
Every couple of months or so, I see someone else trying to get in contact with this same person. Apparently I am not the only one that has had a bad experience. I don't regret not posting the name, though, I don't think it would have made any real difference.
*******************************************************************************
No one seems to be sqeemish about ridiculing an Ebay buyer/seller that does not fulfill their obligation. Typically, that Ebay buyer/seller does not even have the knowledge of what is occuring on this Forum and therefore does not have the opportunity to defend themselves.
Yet, a fellow Member is almost certain to have knowledge of a post and therefore will have an equal opportunity to tell their side of the story and possibly defend themselves. To me that seems to be a much more fair situation and a much more preferential situation, in that we have an opportunity to hear both sides of the story.
It would seem that some Members enjoy hiding in the blurry anonomity of the Forum. It's real easy to hold someone up for ridicule when they have NO opportunity to defend themselves and you can attack with impunity. It is quite another matter to ridicule when the other party has an opportunity to provide their side of the story.
Name the DEADBEAT! They don't deserve any special privileges. They will have an opportunity to tell their side of the story. Perhaps, they will just slink off into ambiguity and away from this Forum.
<< <i>It would seem that some Members enjoy hiding in the blurry anonomity of the Forum. >>
Interesting statement coming from somebody with his profile hidden and PM's disabled.
Russ, NCNE
The title of the thread is "Stiffed by Board Member??"
The title is NOT "Cheated by Board Member??"
You say, "You did not get 'stiffed', as your title says, since no transaction was completed." You then go on to say, "And, no goods changed hands, so nobody was cheated-which is the definition of 'stiffed'." Sorry Russ, per Greg's post the definition of stiff is "to refuse to pay of tip." It would seem the perpetrator has refused to pay.
The title of the thread is correct.
P.S. - Russ, I don't need PM's to say the things I need to say. I'm not afraid to say the things I want to say in a public forum. Seems you have things you want to say (PM) that are you are ashamed to say in a public forum. Those kind of comments are things I choose to not read.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Seems you have things you want to say (PM) that are you are ashamed to say in a public forum. >>
I have no problem saying anything publicly that I say privately. I just don't hide, like you do, while saying it.
Russ
it seems to me that the other party lacks any integrity and should have said they were unable to follow through on their commitment. oh well, it happens. but in regard to the purchase of the other coin, that ones on you, wings. and all the stuff about going to the PO and the time off for the bank etc, etc, etc is on you. i guess it's the downside of security and the wish to seperate where we live from where/how our coins are bought/stored. everything has a price.
just put the guy on your personal blacklist, learn from your own mistakes and don't hold your breath waiting for others to do the right thing. expectation is only premeditated resentment. oh yeah, maybe you should try to develop some patience!!!!
al h.
<< <i>expectation is only premeditated resentment. >>
Keets,
That's pretty good! Did you make that one up?
Russ, NCNE
i'm not quite that clever. it was handed down to me and, well, let's just say the glove usually fits!!
al h.
I use the FIDO method when dealing with situations such as the one you described. FIDO (forget it, drive on) has served me well, and has preserved my emotional capital for more personally fulfilling persuits like railing at the injustices of my latest submission. Karma will surely consume the person that yanked you around. You won't have to out them anyway. One of the truisms of the south is that "a hurt dog will bark", so I expect the offender will speak up pretty soon.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
OK! I CONFESS! I DID IT! BOO HOO HOO! PLEASE FORGIVE ME! BOO HOO HOO!
Oops! Wrong thread, sorry.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
LOL!
<< <i> i hate it when i get my boxers in a bunch because someone doesn't realize who i am and act accordingly. >>
Huh? Who are you?
In layman's terms: SOMEBODY'S BEEN STIFFED!!!!!!
Put a few zero's on the transaction, and off to court you would go -- and win.
WHO IS THIS PERSON. I BUY ON THE BOARDS AT MEMBER'S WORD! I WANT TO KEEP DOING IT!!!!
The Parol evidence rule from the mid 1800's specifically states that ANY contract, in order to be enforceable by a court in this country, must be in writing. OR - there must be a SUBSTANTIAL amount of witness evidence to prove beyond a doubt that the contract existed.
Since there is only the buyer and the seller - there was no contract - don't get me wrong here - there was no contract "according to enforceable law". I agree 100% that the dufus said he would buy it for such and such and the seller said "okay"....but so what? He cannot do anything about it because there is no written evidence.
UNLESS......unless there is sufficient electronic communication evidence to support the claim
Indeed - e-mail DOES count.
Also - the question of printing the "bad guy's" name and forum "handle" here is interesting...would he then have recourse for damage to his/her reputation? Unless you can prove there was a contract in the first place - then the publishing of his/her name associated with this "scandall" could actually cause harm to him/her and their reputation and/or business.
My best advice is: live and learn AND tread lightly ...but carry a big a$$ stick
Of course - I could be wrong
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
What I find interesting is that the offer was unsolicited...seems like a lot of trouble and then not follow through.
I think you should post the name, I've had a lot of very positive experiences on the boards and would hate to have that change.
Mark
Mark's Mattes
Mark's Cameo SMS Set
Mark's Non-Cameo SMS Set
Witch, witch! Lets find the witch!
Witch, witch, lets BURN the witch!
Do we really want to do this?
Contrary to popular belief, a valid and enforceable contract can be either verbal or written. However the law is very clear that in order to have a legal contract, the following three elements must all be present:
1. Offer - Usually an offer to buy or sell something, AND
2. Acceptance - The second party agreeing to the terms and conditions of a sale, AND
3. Consideration - This is usually the payment for goods.
If any one of the above is missing, then there is no legal contract. Your deal had the first two elements, but there was no consideration as payment was not rendered and the coin was not sent. There is no breach of contract, but you did get stiffed.
What you have legally is a case of detrimental reliance. You relied (to your detriment) on the potential buyer to send you funds to complete your sale (and contract). You spent funds on a replacement coin, and have other expenses associated with this deal. You do have a legal case of detrimental reliance - not breach of contract. That being said, the dollar amount involved makes it impractical to pursue the matter in court.
Bottom line is that you have to decide whether to name the board member's name here or not. The other party can come on here and offer an explanation if he so desires. If the explanation is reasonable, I think that no one here would hold what didn't happen against him. On the other hand, if it is discovered that this person habitually breaks deals with fellow board members, perhaps that should be revealed. Personally, I would name the name. I don't take kindly to getting stiffed or cheated (as I once was here). That is a sure way to start a fight that I will guarantee to finish. As for yourself, you have to decide.
BTW, outside the one deal that went bad, I have had hundreds of successful deals with fellow board members.
(edited for typos)
<< <i>The other party can come on here and offer an explanation if he so desires. If the explanation is reasonable, I think that no one here would hold what didn't happen against him. >>
Well, the above is quoted from my above post. The buyer in this deal was kind enough to send me a PM explaining his side in this transaction. His explanation was entirely reasonable to me, and I think this situation is just one of outside factors delaying completion of this deal. That is my considered opinion, and Wingsrule can post his. I believe that in the end, both parties will be satisfied with this transaction.