Chopmarked coin questions

shirohniichan

This is from a faithful reader in Podunk City, Wyoming:

How can you tell when a coin was chopmarked? For instance, suppose I took a 1799 half dollar and chopmarked it today. I let the coin tone a bit (or perhaps I help it along with some AT). How can you tell that this coin wasn't legitimately chopmarked in the 18th century as opposed to actually being chopmarked in the 21st century?

There is no easy way to identify a counterfeit chopmark. I've only heard one case involving them. Someone chopmarked some silver coins from the early 1960's, but these were easily recognizable as fakes because coins were last chopped in the 1930's.

Seasoned collectors can give fairly accurate estimations of authenticity because they are familiar with known chopmark designs. Of course, the rarer the coin is chopmarked, the more scrutiny will be applied. For example, if someone finds a chopmarked bust dollar with AU details, he will likely accept it as genuine since they sell for less than unchopped specimens. However, a chopmarked common date seated half dime in VF condition would be thoroughly checked since it would be worth more with an Asian chop than without one.

shirohniichan

Here is a question from a new reader from Moose Gut Lake Junction, British Columbia:

I see lots of coins for sale on eBay with "chopmarks" that appear to be gouges. Can you explain these?

I would be happy to. Some people have the mistaken notion that chopmarks are any kind of dent or damage on a coin. An Asian "chop" is a seal used to identify a coin of proper bullion content, not a cut on a coin. Cuts, drill marks, and other means to detect if a coin is plated are called "test marks." Test marks and gouges do not add to the value of coins, though Asian chopmarks may in some cases. There is no way to tell where a test mark came from, but chopmarks are somewhat identifiable by design and size.

Mark

Here is a new question from a listener in Snake-soup, Wisconsin:
Are some chops worth more than other chops? In other words, is it possible for two identical coins to have different values simply because one is chopmarked one way and the other coin is chopmarked differently?

There is a follow up question from another reader in Sail Frog, North Dakota:
I know that chopmarks basically indicate that the "chopper" has tested a coin and determined that its fineness is as stated. But, what do the various chopmarks translate to? Are they just the name of the "chopper" or is there sometimes something more poetic chopped onto the coin?

These faithful collectors than you in advance!

Mark

nucklehead

Great info Shiroh, Btw I have a few chopmarked U.S.silver eagles,do you think they're worth much?

RLinn

Shiroh, I probably missed something obvious but where did these questions come from? I think the information is great and really appreciate the answers.

shirohniichan

Here is a new question from a listener in Snake-soup, Wisconsin:
Are some chops worth more than other chops? In other words, is it possible for two identical coins to have different values simply because one is chopmarked one way and the other coin is chopmarked differently?

Great question! The answer is, "Yes."

There is a follow up question from another reader in Sail Frog, North Dakota:
I know that chopmarks basically indicate that the "chopper" has tested a coin and determined that its fineness is as stated. But, what do the various chopmarks translate to? Are they just the name of the "chopper" or is there sometimes something more poetic chopped onto the coin?

Some are simple geomoetric designs. Others are single characters that identify the chopper (usually a banker or merchant) to businesses in his own locale. They may not be a reference to the chopper's name, either. A common chop is the Chinese character for good luck. Yet others are multi-character and clearly identify the assayer.

Although it wasn't chopmarked, I've seen a seated half with Buddhist scripture engraved on it.

shirohniichan

Shiroh, I probably missed something obvious but where did these questions come from?

Mark and some voices in my head provided the questions. The answers are from my own brain and are pulled from Rose's book Chopmarks and my own collecting experience.

shirohniichan

Here's one from junior reader, Timmy Tiptoes of Mistersauga, Manitoba.

How can you be so sure chopmarking ended in the 1930's?

Chopmarking was made illegal by the Chinese government in the 1930's, and banks would not accept chopmarked coins after a certain date. Since the object of chopmarking was to ascertain a coin's worth, chopmarking it after the prohibition would have been counterproductive. No one would chopmark a coin if it would take away its legal tender status and thus make it worth only bullion value, especially since silver prices were falling.

RLinn

<< <i>some voices in my head provided the questions. >>

I apparently did miss something obvious, like the tongue (forked as it is) firmly planted in your cheek (Do vipers even have cheeks?) when you selected the names and locations of faithful readers and listeners.

Mark

We have a new question from a knowledge seeker from Snake Falls, Michigan:
Why did the Chinese government make chopping illegal in the 1930s?

And yet another follow-up question from another reader in Cat Gut, Utah:
Does the grade/rarity of the underlying coin affect the value from the perspective of a chopmark collector? I presume some chops are more expensive than other chops. Is this difference in value based strictly on rarity (so that a rarer chop is more valuable than a less rare chop) or do other factors, such as the beauty of the chop (so that a beautiful chop is more expensive than an ugly chop) also play a role?

Once again, thanks in advance.

Mark

P.S.: Sorry about giving you these questions sequentially. That's how they pop into my mind.

shirohniichan

Here's one from Sean Sheep of Pepsicola, Florida:

I have a chopmarked coin. How much is it worth?

If the chopmark is genuine and the coin is made of silver, it's worth somewhere between 30 cents and $3,000.

shirohniichan

We have a new question from a knowledge seeker from Snake Falls, Michigan:
Why did the Chinese government make chopping illegal in the 1930s?

I don't have a reference from the Chinese government to back up my theory, but I believe it was because they didn't like their coins being so mutilated. I will have to research this. It makes sense to me that they wouldn't like the idea of merchants testing their coins for bullion weight as it showed distrust.

And yet another follow-up question from another reader in Cat Gut, Utah:
Does the grade/rarity of the underlying coin affect the value from the perspective of a chopmark collector? I presume some chops are more expensive than other chops. Is this difference in value based strictly on rarity (so that a rarer chop is more valuable than a less rare chop) or do other factors, such as the beauty of the chop (so that a beautiful chop is more expensive than an ugly chop) also play a role?

There are a few factors at work here: the rarity of the underlying coin in all states, the rarity of the chopmark by itself, and the rarity of the coin when chopmarked. Here are some examples:
1) A chopmarked bust dollar. Bust dollars are fairly scarce when chopmarked, and they are also somewhat scarce without chopmarks. If you can find one with a chopmark you'll have two different sets of collectors wanting the same coin. The chopmark could be the most commonly encountered one for the period, but if it's on a scarce and desirable coin like a bust dollar you've struck gold.
2) Assayers' chopmarks. These are generally seen as the most valued type of chopmark since they are fairly scarce. Certain ink chops also qualify. Nice chops on a common Mexican 8 reales will make an $8 into an $80 or even a $150 coin.
3) A chopmarked capped bust half dime. Chopmarks could be on the most common US half dime with good details and make it go from an $15 coin to a $90 or maybe even an $300 coin. Chopmarks usually don't add that much value, but there are certain cases in which they'll make the common coin extraordinary.

Mark

And yet another question, this time from a reader in Snake Guts, Montana:
Are there any chopmarks to the effect "This coin is debased and not as pure as it claims"? Or were debased coins simply not chopped?

And next we hear from an economist in Gainesville, Florida:
Re why the Chinese government made chopping illegal in 1930: China had a severe hyperinflation in either then 1930s or the 1940s. Twenty or so years ago, when I was at the University of Pittsburgh, I read a book about this hyperinflation written by one of my older colleagues. (I read the book in case the colleague was still on the faculty when I was up for tenure and promotion and so would vote on my tenure and promotion. Even then I knew that sucking up was a good idea.) I don't recall precisely when the hyperinflation occurred, but if it was in the 1930s, the government might not have wanted it publicized that the coinage was being debased. This, in conjunction with the above question from the reader in Snake Guts, might explain why chopping was made illegal??

As always, thanks in advance.

Mark

P.S.: It looks like this thread might go past one page without anyone flaming someone else....

shirohniichan

And yet another question, this time from a reader in Snake Guts, Montana:
Are there any chopmarks to the effect "This coin is debased and not as pure as it claims"? Or were debased coins simply not chopped?

It is highly unlikely. Chopmarks were only applied to good coins. Coins that were counterfeit or underweight were discarded or melted. There are contemporary counterfeit chopmarks, however. Counterfeiters applied fake chopmarks to their fake coins so they'd pass easier.

And next we hear from an economist in Gainesburger, Florida:
Re why the Chinese government made chopping illegal in 1930: China had a severe hyperinflation in either then 1930s or the 1940s. Twenty or so years ago, when I was at the University of Pittsburgh, I read a book about this hyperinflation written by one of my older colleagues. (I read the book in case the colleague was still on the faculty when I was up for tenure and promotion and so would vote on my tenure and promotion. Even then I knew that sucking up was a good idea.) I don't recall precisely when the hyperinflation occurred, but if it was in the 1930s, the government might not have wanted it publicized that the coinage was being debased. This, in conjunction with the above question from the reader in Snake Guts, might explain why chopping was made illegal??

It's quite possible the Chinese government didn't want the mistrust of the people because they were doing devious things like debasing coins. I'll have to look into it.

Mrpawn

We're a little slow here in Snow Fall, ID. If you would take a question from some one new to chopmarks. "If a chopmark verified the purity and weight of a coin, why do some coins have multiple chopmarks?"

JR

Mark

We in Snake Eyes, Nevada, send this post to the top so that Shiro can answer the last, very interesting, question.

Mark

Gilbert

Shiroh and other Trade dollar collectors,

See 10/21/02 Coin World article: Dealers detect Trade dollar fakes, Hundreds of couterfeits surface at Hong Kong show, by Paul Gilkes.

Dog97

Here's one from Dog in the Dunes on the Gulf of Meheco:
Why are some certian denominations, years, and countries coins rarer than others? For example chopped Russian coins are nonnexistant and you seldom see chopped Balkin coins from the 1700/early 1800 era or the Korean 5 Yang from 1892.

shirohniichan

Here's one from little Johnny Awnthespot of Veronice Lake, Michigan:
"If a chopmark verified the purity and weight of a coin, why do some coins have multiple chopmarks?"
Merchants were usually only known in their own local area. If another merchant of the area recognized a relaible merchant's chop, he probably wouldn't add his own. However, if someone ran across a chop from an unknown entity, he would test the coin himself to make sure it was good.

Here's a question from Randolph le Chien of Delaboom, Alabama:
Why are some certian denominations, years, and countries coins rarer than others? For example chopped Russian coins are nonnexistant and you seldom see chopped Balkin coins from the 1700/early 1800 era or the Korean 5 Yang from 1892.
Traders liked to use coins that were trusted and therefore readily accepted by Chinese merchants. Most Chinese liked pillar dollars, followed by portrait 8 reales (Carolus III and IIII). Sending coins they didn't know and trust may mean causing problems in transactions, so Russian and Korean coins generally weren't used as bullion coins. Most chopped European coins are at least scarce, and many are rare.

shirohniichan

Here's an example of a coin that's common unchopped, but very scarce with chops. It's a Mexican 1853 Zs 4 reales.

Dog97

You knew I was gonna post this: Toned DarkSide Chopped 97.

Libertad

Interesting coin, now I have to go frolic through the 'net to find out more history.

Here's a link
to a published snippet that details a bit of the historical and political background on the need to chopmark due to the influx of foreign coins, and the sad history of silver market dealers to raise the prices of Carolus coins (familiar to the rural Chinese) relative to the new and unknown coins when the markets of China were becoming attractive to Europe and the Americas.

shirohniichan

That's an informative article, Libertad.

Does anyone know when and where the first de facto US trade dollar was coined?

tradedollarnut

Well, since the silver dollar really didn't circulate in the US, but was rather quickly exported - I'd have to say 1794 at the mint in Philly.

Mark

That was an interesting article!

Here is another question from a reader in Chop Snake, Nebraska:
When a merchant chopped a coin, had the merchant actually tested the composition of the specific coin being chopped? Or was the merchant relying upon his ability to determine a counterfeit?

Once again, thanks in advance.

Mark

shirohniichan

Let me rephrase the question: What was the first trade coin the US specifically minted for use in Asia?

When a merchant chopped a coin, had the merchant actually tested the composition of the specific coin being chopped? Or was the merchant relying upon his ability to determine a counterfeit?

As far as I know, merchants weighed the coins and tested for plating. Assayers actually tested the composition with more reliable techniques, so coins with assayers' chops usually don't have merchant chops on them (unless, perhaps, the assayer got the coin after ithad already been chopped).

tradedollarnut

Hmmm - 59-S silver dollar?

shirohniichan

We have a winner!!!!!!!!!

shirohniichan

Scrudge McGoose from Parsimony, NJ asks,
Were chopmarks ever counterfeited? If so, how can you tell a counterfeit chop?

Yes, there are contemporary counterfeits of trade dollars with chopmarks on them. Since the coins weren't made of silver, we assume that the chops certifying the coins' correct weight and composition are also fakes. I doubt multiple merchants would be too lazy to weigh coins when counterfeits and underweight coins were so common. If you find a chop on a crude counterfeit coin, you can be fairly sure the chop is also counterfeit.

shirohniichan

Hal L. Looyuh from Bacon, Georgia asks:

"Did tradedollarnut miss the boat on this eBay auction?"

Other potential bidders figured it would go for much less, so I think TDN need not cry wolf over spilled milk... or something like that.

CouchP

Thiss is a very interesting subject. Alas, I am still relatively new to collecting. Is it possible you could post a pic of an unchopped 4 real, so as to see the chops for the coin?

tradedollarnut

When given a choice, I prefer at least one chop on each side. Since I already own a few of this very common date, I declined to add another (at that price) that didn't have a chop on the obverse. Still a very desirable coin!

1jester

Boy, I like Dog97's piece of 8!!! I can see now why people get excited about hacked-up/mutilated coins.

shirohniichan

I can see now why people get excited about hacked-up/mutilated coins.

The correct term is "impressionistically enhanced coins," thank you.