PCGS has some company
MAULUMALL
Posts: 711 ✭
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383877923
I'm hoping this doesn't start a nasty thread.
I'm hoping this doesn't start a nasty thread.
0
Comments
if this is a x-over from a pcgs slab, it won't affect my opinion at all of icg, BUT if icg is starting to do this, i will boycott them as well, as much as possible.
it's simple. pcgs recently tried to come up w/ all sorts of reasons why it was good for Americans that they are slabbing this sh1t, but it is another way for them to make more money & it just ain't right.
i DO hope you start a nasty thread on this , & i hope pcgs reads it.
"deplorable" is the best 1-word i can think of.
K S
I see that your definition of scam changes depending on the target.
<< <i>Has anyone seen any other of these ICG death coins? >>
RLinn,
ShopNBC sells them.
Russ, NCNE
LINK to braddick's question to pcgs on the subject, but here it is summarized. (i deleted parts irrelvant to 9/11):
Question:
If PCGS (and "Coin Universe") had to do it again, would you have involved yourself in the 9-11 Twin Towers WTC special insert coins?
PCGS Reponse:
Braddick,
PCGS would certify the WTC coins again if we had to do it over again. We feel that it is important to authenticate and validate for posterity the identification of these historic artifacts. Collectors Universe has been called upon as the leading authentication service to do just this. We feel it is imperative for these historic coins to remain positively identified and we are proud to be the service of choice for this task. Collectors Universe has performed stringent accountability to this end so that future owners of these coins will forever own this unique piece of history.
with all due respect to mr. montgomery, this response disgusts me. it disgusts me multiple times more than any other alleged "scam" that anyone has ever linked to on this forum. why? it sounds 100% like marketing jabber purposefully intended to take advantage of America's largest international crisis since the Vietnam War. nowhere do i gain an understanding as to WHY pcgs must certify these coins for posterity. nowhere do i see how this contributes to the due respect that the people who died deserve. why are the coins more important than the rubble from the buildings themselves? or the surviving steel girders? or a fireman's boot? or a torn and tattered American flag? or other artifacts? did anybody preserve coins buried under Pearl Harbor? and is the "preservation for posterity" outweighing the simple fact that MONEY and GREED is being encouraged for those who sell these coins at exorbitant prices? sounds to me like reasoning that has no basis, but sure is a great marketing tool for supporting their purpose, which is ONLY TO MAKE A PROFIT on these coins.
the proper thing to do would have been to destroy ALL of the coins, in my opinion, since it is the most obvious target in the coin-world for being manipulated for no reason other than greed. you tell me, what word would you rather use than SCAM? honor? respect? duty? sacrifice?
somehow, none of those seems to fit.
K S
<< <i>with all due respect to mr. montgomery, this response disgusts me. >>
Karl,
The entire death coin thing disgusts me. Always has. But, because it is disgusting doesn't make it a scam - by your own definition. At least try to be consistent.
Russ, NCNE
K S
K S
You know absolutely nothing about how I reacted or feel about 9-11.
Russ, NCNE
sorry, russ, i'm not really interested in side-arguments about this stuff, where 9/11 is concerned. yes, i know someone who was directly affected by the disaster, yes it bothers me SEVERELY. like i said, i knew up front that i said "scam" inconsistently, & it's a reflection of how much 9/11 affected me. i think i'm otherwise pretty dammed consistent w/ how i use it.
my apologies to anyone else who might be reading this. 1 year later, i believe most everyone has great respect for the victims of 9/11. i guess what i really want to say is that pcgs shows no respect for the victims by encouraging these sales tactics. it's not a scam, but it makes me as sick as any scam i've ever seen.
this subject is too difficult for me to handle right now, so i am hereby bowing out of this thread.
K S
I don't like the idea of people sell death coins, or selling 911 T-Shirts in NY. But as long as people keep buying them, people are going to keep selling them. How about people recovering artifacts from the Titanic? Would you go see the exibition of Titanic artifacts? Pleople are fasinated with tragity. Look at the coin sellers on E-Bay selling WW-II Nazi coins. People buy them. Not that is right, but if people want them someone will sell them.
As for PCGS slabbing 911 coins, I have no problem with that. If they didn't every would be selling SAE's as 911 death coins. If someone wants a peice of 911 history, then let them buy it.
Just my two cents worth..
J.
Proud owner of several DEATH COINS
As Russ stated,
<< <i>You know absolutely nothing about how I reacted or feel about 9-11. >>
I have no interest in purchasing any service's death coins. It's not an issue for me. How I feel about 9-11 and how I feel about the coins I collect are not related in any way.
you echoed my opinion. while i don't appreciate the apparent greed of those who deal in WTC coins, it's their own business i guess. i own nazi artifacts from WWII and this might disgust someone else. what about recovered loot from sunken ships? people seem to get all excited about recovering lost treasure. the WTC coins weren't owned by any of the 9/11 deceased and in some cases a small % of the profit went to a 9/11 fund.
compare this to looting sunken ships to strip the jewelry from the corpse of the owner, with nothing but fame and fortune in mind. i compare this to driving to the local cemetery, digging up graves and stealing any valuables off the body. why is everyone up in arms about WTC but not this? just because it's more "personal" doesn't make it any more or less right.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Grip is correct that it's best that we leave such private matters private... Since, however, this issue is being publicly discussed, I ask that we use this opportunity NOT to attack each other.
It's pretty difficult under normal circumstances to utilize our verbal skills in an absolutely precise manner for conveying our thoughts. This subject is extremely sensitive to a lot of us, and I'd expect that it would be even more difficult to convey our thoughts well.
I think it may honor the victims of 9/11 -- Americans and foreigners alike -- if we can use this issue as a way to embrace each other with our shared humanity rather than to vent at each other.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
(1) does pcgs show respect for the victims of 9/11 by certifying these coins?
(2) if so, then the rest of the argument is null & void. but if they do NOT show respect, how is subsidizing their disrespect by doing business w/ them a positive thing?
<< <i>did anybody raise a ruckus when PCGS slabbed coins recovered from the SS Central America, or coins recovered from the Atoica. >>
you better believe it, maybe not on this forum though.
<< <i>You say you are so DEEPLY effected by 9-11. >>
please show where you quoted me on this statement
<< <i>What do you want? A hug or a cookie? Crying towel? Some attention? Quit being a wuss and trying to gain pathetic attention by any means possible. >>
no i don't want your attention, jmwarren, like i said, i'm over it now. yes, i was being a wuss. yes, i do know a family that was affected by the events, no it was not an immediate family member, just a relative. sorry i made YOU so upset.
<< <i>You are as bad as you accuse PCGS of being. They use the history of 9-11 to make money, and you use it to TRY and get attention for your "deeply" effected self. >>
so getting attention would be as bad as making money? don't understand your position on that one.
<< <i>Proud owner of several DEATH COINS >>
i respect your pride. i wish pcgs respected the 9/11 victims just as much.
<< <i>I don't like the idea of people sell death coins, or selling 911 T-Shirts in NY. But as long as people keep buying them, ... >>
not trying to say its RIGHT or WRONG. i'm just trying to provoke some thought on pcgs's position by certifying this stuff. do you believe their motivation is for POSTERITY??? or do you think that making $ might just possibly be part of it? yet i notice that rick montgomery mentioned absolutely nothing about making money being part of their motive.
<< <i>compare this to looting sunken ships to strip the jewelry from the corpse of the owner, with nothing but fame and fortune in mind. i compare this to driving to the local cemetery, digging up graves and stealing any valuables off the body. why is everyone up in arms about WTC but not this? just because it's more "personal" doesn't make it any more or less right. >>
NOT up in arms about them being 9/11 coins! i'm up in arms about the "reasons" pcgs states for slabbing them! their reasons are "baseball and apple pie"! but have nothing to do w/ money or profit.... if rick would have said "we slabbed these coins mostly because we knew it would be a profitable venture, and also to help preserve these coins for posterity", i would'nt have had the slightest problem with this subject.
it's like a slabbing company saying "we slab coins to help protect the collector from overgraded rip-offs". baloney! a slabing company slabs coins to make a profit. there's nothign wrong w/ making a profit, but please don't mislead collectors into thinking that profits come second to "helping out the poor, stupid collector who can't grade his own coins"
<< <i>I think I need to apoligize for bringing this to the board. >>
he11 no, you did a GREAT service. i'm glad someone had the GUTS to open up this subject to the forum. you chose a provocative subject, & it questions the morals and ethics of the exact same plastic companies that a lot of folks line up to give money to for their services.
& it sure as heck doesn't bother me to express my opinion. i don't mind standing up for my what i believe, even if it does make me look like an a55. i may have pissed off a couple of people, made some uncomfortable, whatever, but i ain't mad at ANY of the forum members at all! but ideas and opinions got expressed. isn't that why we have this forum?
K S
i agree with you though i wasn't referring to you specifically. that PCGS canned response sounded like a disclaimer concocted by the PR department consulted by the legal department. it sounded like something al gore would have said.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
K S
Her's something I found link that says that proceeds went to help the WTC
fund. America is not like that. I'm certain, the sales of all these coins, have somehow
went to the WTC fund. Otherwise, like you said, it would not look good for business.
I've also noticed that the mintages were very low, like 1000 for the 2001 Silver eagle.
I wouldn't call that rapeing the general public. BUT, that's my opinion.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
K S
It does bother me a little about the money generated from the sale of these items.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
My personal opinion is that the use of "death coins" to make a profit is about the most disgusting abuse of capitalism I can imagine. It is unfortunate that some business interests have become so saturated with the greed mentality that they find it necessary to participate in this amoral behavior. They have only one goal, to profit from the 9/11 tragedy, or any other tragedy.
Perhaps the next attempt to swim in the sewer will be "Death Coins, Inc". All Death Coins, Inc. are guaranteed to have been obtained by:
grave robbing
pried from the dead or dying hands of soldiers on a real battlefield
have been in the pockets of an executed criminal
have been in the pockets of slave laborers who died from starvation, disease, or were executed in countries such as China, North Korea, ...
were gleaned from the victims of an accident, man made or natural disaster - natural disaster coins garner a higher premium
are officially authenticated with a certificate of authenticity to have formally been the property of holocaust victims from Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Asia, ...
.
.
.
Sadly, I believe Death Coins, Inc. would probably make a profit.
Will this sickness never cease?
<< <i>We feel that it is important to authenticate and validate for posterity >>
so it has nothing to do w/ turning a profit, right? did they ask the vicitim's families if that's what THEY wanted? to have to BUY relics of the tragedy from a company that says it's ok to do so? like you said, you can buy what you want, you can sell what you want, you say what you want, you can be what you want. i am questioning what it is that pcgs's stated motives for selling this service/product.
if it is so important to "preserve these pieces for prosperity", it would have been simple enough to freely give one of each of these coins to each vicitim's family, and leave the authentication and validation where it belongs - to the people concerned.
i ask you consider 1 little question: is pcgs showing the proper respect for the victim's of 9/11 in slabing these coins and selling them for a profit?after you answer that question for yourself, it's up to you to go out and do the right thing.
1 last thing: my sincere THANKS TO COIN-UNIVERSE AND PCGS for not censoring this thread and my responses to it. i recognize and admire their willingness to let someone like myself bash their service in an open forum discussion.
K S
We vote with our dollars and our feet! We can CHOOSE to continue to use the services of PCGS by sending them coins for certification or we can go elsewhere. We can CHOOSE to buy PCGS certified coins, or we can buy coins in another service's holder. If you feel as strongly about this matter as you imply, then you should utilize another grading service for certification and future purchases. PCGS has been made well aware of your feelings and they have not stopped, nor have they apologized for their actions. Basically, they have thumbed their noses at you/us. If they want our business back, they know how to get it.
Personally, I hate the coins. I've never purchased one of the coins. I wouldn't sell one of the coins. I wouldn't collect one of the coins. However, I respect the free enterprise system and I respect PCGS' right to create such a holder, certify such coins and promote their services. However, I have NO RESPECT for PCGS choosing to do so. They didn't have to do this and after hearing the outrage, they could have chosen to STOP certifying the coins. They didn't!
As my dear departed grandmother liked to say - "If you find a rat swimming in your bath water, its OK to persuade it to leave"
DCAMFranklin - You are correct about what an individual can do. As of right now I've decided not to submit another coin to PCGS. Its all I can do.
It kind of reminds me of the card company [i forget which one] that created a series of "Famous Serial Killers". It was all the rage with kids and many schools forbide them to bring them onto campus. The more they publicized the cards the more the kids wanted them.
Back then I wondered how parents could let them kids play with the likes of Jeffery Dahlmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, etc.
Is it really about making a buck? I am more concerned there is actually a MARKET for such morbidity.
I own half dozen gold & silver WTC PCGS slabs that I am glad to have. For me they represent a small link to a truly tragic event in American history. As strange as it may sound those coins provide, on some level, a personal link to that event. They are a tangible reminder of that sad day. One day I will share the coins and my memories of the event with my children or grand children.
Proud United States Marine
Semper Fidelis
--------------------------------------------------
If a member of the "blame America first" crowd tries to tell you that America brought 9/11 on itself don't try to debate this issue with them because their type are impervious to facts, history, and logic - just pop 'em in the mouth and go about your business
It would be my hope, that a measure of good judgement, good ethics, and good moral
character would go into such product or service. If, in my opinion, those considerations are lacking,
then I would exercise my right to boycott the purchase of such a product or service. Bear
Camelot
1 - I can understand why Americans would want to remember battles fought and victories won. I don't really understand why anyone would want to own a coin stored in a vault underneath the WTC when it was attacked. It conjures no positive image for me. In fact, it serves to remind me of a very painful, tragic event.
2 - These coins are not rare, nor have they been hidden away from the world by time and become historically interesting.
3 - They have no relevance to the event. A piece of the Berlin Wall, a tattered flag, an enemy bayonet, a civil war button, even a Mae West from the Titanic all seem to have some relevance to a historic event. I just don't get why these coins are collectible.
I don't know how I feel about the coins being slabbed and resold, because personally, I don't know the people who collect them's motivation. I just can't indict or exonerate them, because I'm not sure of their intentions. All of that said, I personally see no need to be reminded of the 9/11 tragedy. They only souvenir I'd like to see us collect is Bin Laden.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
We don't need a souvenir of Bin Laden. Just his head....on a stick...will suffice.
<< <i>I don't respect their right, I accept it >>
hey pushkin, i never thought of it in that way. THANK YOU for an extremely insightful and profound (imo) comment.
<< <i>I own half dozen gold & silver WTC PCGS slabs that I am glad to have. For me they represent a small link to a truly tragic event in American history ... They are a tangible reminder of that sad day >>
not disagreeing w/ you on this. but let me just ask: if the coins were not in the plastic, wouldn't they mean just as much? are your kids going to wonder why a corporation had to stamp their name on this tangible piece of history? i mean, it seems to me that the FIRST thing you see is the "pcgs" or "icg" logo, then a 100% absolutely IRRELEVANT "grade", THEN you see the coin. why not just issue the coins w/ a certificate of authenticity and let YOU AND THE COIN tell the story, rather than have pcgs tell it for you?
maybe i'm way off base. but i just do not like the motivation of profit being so much stronger than the historical aspect of the whole issue.
K S