Who else here doesn't really care about grades?
shirohniichan
Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭
Grades are important in the business, but I find them less relevant in collecting.
To me, eye-appeal is almost everything (originality is high on my list, too). I have some AU-58 coins that blow away low MS coins, yet they are priced lower because the grade difference. That's great news to me.
So when I look at a coin, I don't immediately try to determine the grade. I look for the strike, wear, toning (if any), signs of doctoring, etc., but the number doesn't matter much to me. If it looks MS-65 to me, is in an MS-63 holder, and is priced as an MS-64, I may buy it. If it is raw, I'll pay whatever I think is fair for it, even if others would believe I'm paying too much. Similarly, if I don't like the look of a coin in an MS-65 slab, I won't even pay MS-63 price for it.
Who else judges a coin by its look without worrying about attaching a number grade to it when adding it to a personal collection?
To me, eye-appeal is almost everything (originality is high on my list, too). I have some AU-58 coins that blow away low MS coins, yet they are priced lower because the grade difference. That's great news to me.
So when I look at a coin, I don't immediately try to determine the grade. I look for the strike, wear, toning (if any), signs of doctoring, etc., but the number doesn't matter much to me. If it looks MS-65 to me, is in an MS-63 holder, and is priced as an MS-64, I may buy it. If it is raw, I'll pay whatever I think is fair for it, even if others would believe I'm paying too much. Similarly, if I don't like the look of a coin in an MS-65 slab, I won't even pay MS-63 price for it.
Who else judges a coin by its look without worrying about attaching a number grade to it when adding it to a personal collection?
Obscurum per obscurius
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The problem with this ,
there is no known cure. The only treatment to control this disease , is the continuing
and increasing accumulation of
beautiful, Deep Cameo Proof JFKs for the rest of our lives. Bear
Camelot
But that only works best if you are face to face with the coin and can negotiate with the seller. Grades are a fact of life because a lot of people buy or order coins without seeing them based on the grade advertised (Yes, I agree you should see the coin first, but that is not a reality for a lot of buyers, right or wrong). That's why standards and consistency in grading is important.
If I buy a Lincoln cent in VF condition, I am expecting a coin that shows a certain wear pattern. I do not expect to get a coin that would barely grade Fine (based on accepted standards). In this situation grades are very important, especially if the coin is priced at its advertised grade.
I once ordered Beef Stroganoff in a restaurant and the waitress placed this baby sh1t yellow plate of food in front of me. I asked what it was and she replied "Beef Stroganoff". I said Beef Stroganoff is served in a sour cream BROWN gravy what is this? She said "Oh, we make ours with MUSTARD". Needless to say I didn't get what I expected. (Is there a culinary board I can appeal to for the authentification of Beef Stroganoff?).
Joe.
Collecting Dollars
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and poetic side to their nature. It seems you humans really do have an artistic and intellectual
life aside of coin collecting. It makes a little bear just want to cry for joy. Bear
Camelot
Sleep well tonight for the 82nd Airborne Division is on point for the nation.
AIRBORNE!
I knew when I saw your post that I had just read a similar question in Rare Coin Review. This is David Bowers response in Q & A to a similar question, "if you want to buy, for example, an MS-63 1875-CC 20-cent piece, the quality of certified pieces will range from ugly to gorgeous. We will pay well over "bid" for a sharply struck, lustrous, high-quality example that has superb astetic appeal. We will not pay half of bid for a poorly struck, spotted and stained MS-63 coin." He followed that advice up in a subsequent answer with the following, "My advice, as frequently stated here, is to use a certified holder as a starting point, and beyond that, evaluate a coin for its strike, luster, planchet quality, eye appeal, and other aspects." Finally, he also said "We will not buy any coin sight-unseen." I certainly respect and always enjoy reading his opinion. I think he has this response exactly right. A beautiful coin will always be desirable in any grade.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Obscurum per obscurius
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
However, I mostly care about grades in abstract terms. For example, I like my Early Dollars in the EF-ish range, which can be anywhere from VF30 to AU50, depending on strike, etc. (Obviously, I will not pay AU50 money for a coin I think is really an EF coin.)
I don't care about 3rd-party grading that much. What PCGS, NGC, etc., say about the grade of an Early Dollar has almost ZERO bearing on how much I'm willing to pay for a coin.
I guess for me, the grade suggests a certain degree of quality, and that qualitative aspect needs to be rounded out by the other aspects. For me, eye appeal comes before grade. But, grade does matter to me.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Adding digits to the current system would allow evaluations of several different criteria - perhaps:
1st two digits would remain 0 - 70 and grade the wear.
3rd digit - 0 - 9 for quality of original strike (this might become a standard '5' after F-15)
4th digit - 0 - 9 would indicate treatment of the coin ('9' for original, '6' for dipped, '1' for harshly cleaned)
5th digit - 0 - 9 for quality of original plachet (this might become a standard '9' for coins after 1960?)
Lastly, a single letter to indicate a visual surface appearance - toned, white, dark, black!, corroded, etc .
I appreciate simplicity; however, the current system is offering a false security under the guise of simplicity. Why tolerate a system that produces MS-66 coins that 98%+ of us think are ugly!
Truthfully, I probably won't ever buy another coin that I can't hold, but we ought to be able to communicate the knowledge that we all share through an open evaluation system. Thanks.
I saw an 1875-CC 20 cent piece Wyn Carner had that I thought looked better than most MS-63's I've seen. PCGS said it graded AU-58, and they may have been right. It was priced higher than an MS-60 to 62, but it probably merited the high price.
In the end, does it really matter if it had a slight rub somewhere if it blew away all competition? The grade in that case pointed out that it did have a rub, but it also gave the price sheet addict a heart attack as he wondered why on earth someone would charge MS price for an AU-58 coin (especially since it may not have been a crack-out candidate). If I'd have had the money and wanted that particular coin for my collection, I'd have stepped up to the plate and bought it. Those stuck on grade would have called me crazy, so the only way I'd have been able to keep them off my backs would have been to paste an MS-64 sticker over the PCGS slab.
In the final analysis, if I am well-educated to spot altered coins, counterfeits, etc., I don't worry about assigning number grades and will buy what I like if I think the coin merits the price.
Obscurum per obscurius
1) To get a rough estimate of what the coin will cost
2) Authentication
I look at the coin if I like it I'll estimate what it's worth based on the grade given. If the coin is graded where there is a big price difference from the next lower grade then I "study" the coin more to make sure it is the stated grade. This is where Shiro's "AU58's" come in. High end AU's are a STEAL is you get the right coin. Again, just because it's graded AU58 doesn't mean it's nice. Then again, if a coin is graded MS65 it may not be nice either.
Grade is not what that is important. It's whether I like it (eye appeal) and how MUCH it's going to hurt my wallet.
If you are new at collecting there is an important thing you should know: GRADE DOES NOT NECESSARILY EQUAL QUALITY
jom
<< <i>but why can't we incorporate those distinctions into the grading system? >>
They do. That is why you see so many AU coins in lower MS holders. Happens all the time.
jom
We've had a few discussions regarding the concept of buying "value", the rationale behind paying high one point grade premiums and what physical characteristics differentiate coins at the very high end of the grading spectrum. Although in many cases there is a connection between grade and eye appeal there are many case where a nice AU coin puts an MS coin to shame.
So no, IMHO grade isn't the end all or the most dominate factor as far as my enjoyment of the hobby is concerned.
Have you been following the NCS thread. They are preparing to offer an authentication/ attribution/ encapsulation service with no grade. The holder will be the new air-tight NGC holder with a clear insert. I think the idea holds much promise for those of us that believe in market grading.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
jom
Amen.
How about:
BU
Choice BU
Gem BU
I am reminded of the EAC "VF" coin showing up in a PCGS AU holder. The grade doesn't really matter. EAC dudes could give all the reasons the old copper was only VF and a PCGS grader could explain why he chose AU, but it's still the same coin (and a nice-looking one at that).
Obscurum per obscurius
OK, maybe not, but there is no reason to go back to less MS grades.
PCGS could incorporate "Moons" and "Clovers" for plus and minus MS grades.
peacockcoins
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I love and only collect non slabbed circulated coins. I keep control of the grading, strike, originality and all the facets that make coin collecting fun for me. Eye appeal is KING! I have been just as excited about a cool looking VG10 as I have an AU coin. I could care less about dates and mintmarks if the coin is ugly. I am more interested in beautiful coins that I can appreciate and own, common or otherwise.
Tyler
<< <i>OK, maybe not, but there is no reason to go back to less MS grades. >>
To me there is. It takes away much of the "crack out" schemes plus it lessens the burden of the grading services. Or should I say "control" the services have over the market. Because of the latter I'm pretty sure it won't happen but, to me, the "spreads" should be determined by the market NOT what PCGS says.
jom
IMO, it is difficult to NOT CARE about grades, simply because most sellers are going to incorporate it in their selling price. I have yet to meet more than a select few persons (obviously with whom I have a rapport) who will consider transacting based solely on what we agree the coin's grade truly is. In other words, say I spot something I want, it's grade MS65 by PCGS or NGC. I feel the coin is really not much better than a choice 63, and in some instances the seller admits it isn't really a gem, BUT, then comes I've got XXX dollars in it, or blankety blank company grades it 65 so I have to have at least 65 bid, etc, etc.
Sure I can walk away from that deal, and I do, but I'm just trying to give the perspective that it is almost impossible to transact without the grade being considered.
As far as the grading system goes, AU58 offers the most value for the money in my opinion.
Ray
I collect rare varieties (like lathmach), so I buy circulated and/or cleaned coins if that's the only condition I can find them in.
When it comes to pricing, I have found that outstanding coins garner prices much greater than their technical grade would seem to merit according to price sheets. Thus, for example, a coin could be in an ICG slab graded MS-64, actually be an MS-64, but look nicer than any MS-65 I've ever seen. If it's a coin I feel I "must have" to match my collection, price guides and grades don't mean much. I grant that I will probably never find a coin in VG-10 that excites me so much I'll pay 50 times retail (maybe MS-63 price) for it.
But in the end, what really matters is how the coin appeals to me. If it's an original coin with great eye-appeal and it fits in my budget, I'll buy it. If it's a rare variety, I won't even mind if it's been whizzed or tooled (it may be the only one I'll ever have a chance to own).
Obscurum per obscurius
I love the emotion, appreciate the purity, doubt the practicality of returning to an ungraded world except for very special and rare coins. You just can't go home again!
Maybe an Ungraded Numismatic Club could be formed on-line where a select group of knowledgeable Numismatists could post there scans or pics in the ungraded slab and discus the merits of the coins. An annual meeting could take place at a large show where we could crack out our MS67s and use the onsight non graded authentication slab service. It would be great fun. I suspect however that after 6 months our new club would have a faction that would urge our own grades be established based on the mean grade from the club (of course monitored by our finalizer).
By the way I agree we would weigh heavily eye appeal and originality. Oops, I think I have heard this before.
You sure are right about that. And it's sad that so many
new investors and collectors that are entering the field
buy a rare, well known slabbed mint state coin, just to
say they have it, without the slightest idea how their coin
stacks up against other similarly slabbed coins. The coin
they buy might very well be on the low end of the spectrum
for that denomination, date and mint mark and they wouldn't
even know it because the slab says MS65. The coin might be
encapsulated as a SLQ FH and it isn't and they wouldn't even
know the difference but they have paid the full head difference.
My website
I have to agree also. I tend to collect on eye appeal pretty much along the lines you listed in your post and I am glad to not be the only one.
matt