This is what happens when you use cheap flips for submissions...

Russ

This coin probably would have been a 69DCAM.

I used to encounter that hazing problem a lot. On Supercoin's recommendation, I switched to Saflips only, with no poly bags. My last two submissions, (including the same coin as in that auction - made 69DCAM), came back with not even a speck of haze anywhere. Waiting on one more submission, but I think the problem has been solved.

Russ, NCNE

supercoin

Paypal: paypal@supercoin.com

Checks/money orders/cash/nice Kennedys: PO Box 7444, Rochester, MN 55903

Thanks!

pontiacinf

polybags = haze = hooey


been using safeflips in conjunction with PCGS polys for years, not one hazed coin. But I also dont use reg mail so it can sit in a hot truck for days either.

Russ

<< <i>polybags = haze = hooey >>



Really?



That coin was in a poly bag. But, it was also in a cheap, crappy flip.

Russ, NCNE

RLinn

Would that be called bullseye hazing?

Pushkin

Actually the purple toning looks kind of neat, its just that brown scar tissue that sort of ruins the eye appeal.

DanC

That's pretty nasty. I'm beginning to understand why Russ has been so grumpy lately...

ldhair

pontiacinf

How do you get your coins there? I worry about proofs and the heat as well.

presleyh

I really think not all saflips are created equal. one complete submission went south by 2 or three grade and came back all hazed up. they were in saflips. the second were in soft plastic flips (not saflips) came back pr69 dcam and pr 68 dcam. my ongoing experiment shows that saflips will haze modern proof coins unless you wipe the oil out of the saflips. my next proof coins will go in blotted saflips. that is i carefully blot the oily stuff out of the inside. i will not discount that other factors may interfere with the mirrors. but i have watched 2 proof quarters turn white with haze in saflips in my office. the cheap soft flips didnt effect the other two proof quarters. these are all clad proofs.

psxchelly

you sure he didnt hairline them all up? pr67 is way low for only a little bit of haze.

DoctorZ

Ok, had to weigh in on this. The Dr in DoctorZ is for Chemistry. ALL polybags have an antistatic coating applied during manufacture. Containes amines. Not good for the coins unless you like the pretty colors. Actually, the one below looks like Marilyn gave JFK a hicky with kinky lipstick.

Anyway, FYI - I'm the guy who bought Philly Joe's collection of JFK's. Plan on writing you all an introduction (to me), but probably not tomorrow. So hold off on your trashing me until I give you some ammunition (as though ou need any, it appears).

Have any more chemistry questions, I'll try to answer.

BigD5

Looks like a bad dip. I doubt the hazing has much to do with which flip the coin resides in while going in for slabbing. More to do with what type of oils may still be left on the flip, or the coin itself, if we are talking modern stuff, from the minting process.

DoctorZ

Talk about a bad dip - try hanging any old coin that contains any amount of Copper in a container with ammonia fumes. Should give a nice blue color. The amines that are used as antistatic agents in manufacturing polybags will do the same thing.

Russ

<< <i>I doubt the hazing has much to do with which flip the coin resides in while going in for slabbing. >>



BigD5,

I can guarantee you it certainly does. Besides the coins I've had ruined with regular flips during submissions, I've done experiments here with dozens of proofs. Pristine when popped in the flip, leave on the shelf for the same amount of time a submission is in, and pull out a hazed over piece of junk. The problem has not re-emerged since I switched to Saflips, either on submissions or in testing.



<< <i>you sure he didnt hairline them all up? pr67 is way low for only a little bit of haze. >>



Michelle,

That's plenty of haze to drop it to 67. PCGS is very intolerant of haze.

DoctorZ,

Welcome aboard!

Russ, NCNE

PhillyJoe

Welcome, Doctor Z. I admire your taste in coins. Without stealing the good Dr.'s thunder, he has been a collector for years & has a background in organic chemistry. I already warned him about Russ but didn't have to tell him anything about sniping. I look forward to his input.

Joe

BigD5

So if you get some "hazing" on one of your Saflip submissions, do I get a prize? I'll take your word for it, although I have never had a problem like yours, but I don't do modern stuff, that's why I'll stick with something left on the modern coin that wasn't removed, and the atmospheric conditions the coin is subjected to in the mailing/storage process of grading that can cause the hazing. You may be absolutely correct, I'm just a non-believer

Russ

BigD5,

Of course, I only do moderns, and it only happens with proofs. The business strikes and SMS coins I've submitted have had no problems in any type of flip.

I got so frustrated with this issue that I took two full rolls of 1964 Kennedy proofs and divided them up in to groups to package with different combinations of flips/poly bags/Intercept Shields, etc. The results varied, but the only groups that developed absolutely no problems were the Saflips. I also took the extra step to use both dipped and undipped coins in each combination of packaging.

Russ, NCNE

IrishMike

BigD I go with you on this one, you can't expect to home experiment with coins and not expect them to haze over or grow fingerprints, this story has been retold over and over again by dealers who have attempted the same thing.

BigD5

Sounds like a fair experiment with solid results. I'll wait for my prize
Thanks for the info. Russ!

DanC

As one who has personally witnessed the ritual performed by "Obi-Wan" - Who has to be the most anal pefectionist I've ever seen in my life when it comes to process... he's done all the experiments... it'd be interesting to complete the cycle and identify what causes it, in addition to correcting it - but I suspect he's not necessarily doing it for the science.

There's sure been some tragedies though. I'm withholding a bunch of JFK's until Russ knows for sure...

Russ

<< <i>or the coin itself, if we are talking modern stuff, from the minting process. >>



BigD5,

I did want to note one thing; in that statement you're correct. I've seen too many modern proofs grow haze just by pulling them from the packaging and putting them on the shelf exposed to the air for a while. The late-date clads are particularly prone to the problem. Here's a 2002 example:



The coin was fine when first pulled. Set it on the diaper in my cabinet, and a couple weeks later that's what it looked like. No dipping, not inside a flip, nothing. Just decided to gunk up all by itself. Two others done at the same time developed no problems and are now residing in my sets as 69DCAMs.

That's why I no longer submit anything right after it's pulled.

Russ, NCNE

supercoin

Agh, you pagan SAFLIP non-believers! Don't submit any proofs, you'll kill them! Or if you do, make sure they're Kennedys, not Ikes.

Just to clarify: The name brand is E&T Kointainer SAFLIP flips. Sometimes you see "safe flips" advertised, but if they don't say E&T on them they are probably some off-brand, because SAFLIPs are the most expensive on the market.

But they are real cheap compared to the cost of a coin or a grading fee.

dpoole

This stuff's terrifying to read.

So aside from the use-safeflips-to-submit-'em lesson here, what do you guys do to keep your modern proofs from hazing up when you're just peacefully keeping them safe at home??

Russ

dpoole,

Intercept Shields work like a champ as long as you don't put them inside a cheap flip. I have about a dozen tasty Kennedy proofs that have been in IS's for about a month now, and all look just fine.

Russ, NCNE

supercoin

I keep them in SAFLIPs (not safeflips), of course. Seriously, I've had proofs stored for years in SAFLIPs with no problems.

Probably not much you can do about Russ' example that gunked up on it's own (though maybe he should use a clean diaper next time!)

Apparently his had some impurity on it that would have hazed up eventually, but was sped up by being exposed to fresh air. Some of my recent proofs have developed some haze in their packaging as well.

Maybe giving them a good rinsing in acetone immediately after removing them from the gov't packaging would help.

supercoin

BTW, I also send my submissions by Express Mail, not Registered Mail. Higher risk of loss (though I've never had a problem) but minimizes the transit time.

You might also time your submission to coincide with temperate weather, i.e. don't send them in a heat wave. Especially to NGC (still don't get why they picked Florida to move to, of all places).

DoctorZ

Glory be, a whole month??? Who of us could hope to have a collection any longer than that?

dpoole, you have a right to be scared.

Russ

Supercoin just reminded me of something else. I now only send my submissions on Monday mornings. This eliminates the risk that they'll be sitting in some post office facility for an extra few days by encountering a weekend during transit. Note, though, that my stuff hits PCGS in two days even with just registered mail.

Russ, NCNE

supercoin

Hehe, I do that too. Paranoid minds think alike.

mnmcoin

I think some hazing is caused from leaving some sort of moisture on the coin and putting it in self containment, whether it would be a flip or 2x2 or whatever. Then the moisture condenses and has no where to go and you create some sort of condensation on the coin. I have noticed this on a couple proof coins, when I talk a couple I mean a couple hundred when I first started out in the bulk game with pr franks and kens...I improperly dried them, or didn't dry them good enough and put them in various flips and tubes, and sure enough some real nasty haze. Blew a few hours redipping them, but it is a lesson I learned from.

So my opinion is that yes any flip can help haze a coin, but with expert dippers like sc and russ, this don't come into play, since they probably dry their coins real well...and in that cause the only hazing is done my the chemical in the flip, so switching to the great saflips should solve everything.

mo <><