OK - How should this be handled properly...

FC57Coins

Hello All:

As most of us know, getting grades out of PCGS lately has been like pulling teeth. I personally got slammed on a beautiful 1948P Half that had a shot at a 66FBL, and instead I got it back in a 64FBL slab. Fine - I can deal with that.

Now, burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me....

I bought a number of unopened mint sets and pulled out of them what I thought were fairly decent coins. Among them was a very nice 1961D half. Since I collect Franklins, I think I know them pretty well, and can tell full bell lines when I see them. This coin, though it doesn't have perfect bell lines, has them. The halves from 1960-63 had very poorly defined bell lines and when you get them across all the way, they, for all intents and purposes are called FBL's. I am including photos of the obverse, reverse and as close as I could get to the bell lines with my camera.

So, I send this coin to NGC, wait about a month and I get it back - with an MS65 grade - no full bell lines, but MS65. So here's my question. Based on what you see, when I go to sell it - should I sell it for the grade on the NGC slab, or for what I feel it truly is, which is an NGC MS65FBL. Here's a perfect example of buying the coin and not the slab - but for most of us in reverse. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Frank

FrankinWI

Frank,

Based on the scan, it looks like the bottom bell lines are almost invisible near the crack on the bell. Again based on the scan, I don't think I could grade this an FBL. It does look better than a 64 though.

Frank

FC57Coins

Well - Like I said - the picture is not the best - but in my humble opinion, and looking at the FBL's in my set from that period - they're identical - so that's where I'm coming from there.

thanks for your input!

Placid

I have been told that woth Franklins if a grading service feels a coin is borderline grade and it's a fbl they will either give it for example 65 fbl or 66 without the fbl.
Is that the right way to do things? I don't know but that's what I have been told.

If I were you and felt certain it was a fbl then I would mention that is what you think when selling it.

FC57Coins

No - A 66 is a 66 and an FBL is an FBL - the thing about it is that NGC and PCGS look at it quite differently - as they also do the grade I think. One of the things I know a lot of collectors were doing a while back was cracking NGC slabs that didn't get FBL and sending them to PCGS for a quick buck. I don't know to be honest if this coin would rate a full 65 from PCGS - but it's a helluva lot better than a 64. And then the bell thing kills you - bytheway - the price swing on this is from anywhere $200 to $300 possibly.

Frank

Placid

I agree to me a coin either has a fbl or it dosen't. I just posted what I was told when I asked about this awhile ago.
Goodluck.

Bear

FC - It would be ok for you to say you believe your coin is PQ for the grade, you could price it to accomodate that status. I believe you could also say in your opinion it looks FBL even though it did not receive that grade from the service. Be careful about excessive hype though, that is where you get disatisfied customers, angry comments and nasty name calling. In other words" it just aint worth the hassle, to overhype the coin". Bear

FC57Coins

You are spot on Bear - and that's what I DON'T want to do - however, I also don't want to give the coin away so I guess I'll let the pictures and description do the talking.

Thanks!

Frank

FrankinWI

Frank,

Why not just crack the coin out of it's slab and resend the coin. I've had good luck with the limited number of Franklins I've sent to PCGS. Maybe they might be in a good mood that day.

Frank

FC57Coins

True, that's one option Frank, or I could keep it. If I crack it, it could come back MS64 or MS64 FBL, either way I lose. If I keep it in the holder it's in and call it premium quality, I may get something close to it's real value. I guess the bottom line is that it is a premium grade coin - whether it's in a 64FBL or a 65 slab. Thanks for the input!

Frank

EVillageProwler

FC,

It's been said that NGC is tougher than PCGS on FBL designations. Perhaps you're comparing NGC's handiwork to PCGS's standards?

See this thread from the NGC site regarding such differences: THREAD.

EVP

FrankinWI

If they graded this ugly Franklin as MS66FBL you for sure will get a MS67FBL!!!


Link to the worlds uglyest MS66FBL Franklin

Dog97

It looks like the continuity of the top line is broken above the clapper. I think to call it a FBL when you sell it would be improper and also deceptive. If you feel it is a FBL then resubmit it some more.

FC57Coins

Dog:

I agree with your assessment of the picture, however, in real life it goes all the way through - I appreciate your honest opinion because I wouldn't want to overstate the coin to anyone. Thanks!

Frank

Endocrinologist

If you can't get a third party service to call it FBL, then I don't think you can honestly call it FBL. Yes, they may be wrong or too tough, etc. But I think it would be misleading to the buyer if you called it that. What would you do if he/she decided to take your word on it and crack it out and send it to another 3rd party service and it wasn't FBL again? They wouldn't be too happy.. They might even want a refund or leave you neg feedback.

IMHO, no hype, just list what it says on the slab and say its close to full bell lines but not.

Endo

FC57Coins

You're right Vin - I think you hit it on the mark - it's a perfect coin for someone who doesn't want to spend the money on an FBL coin but gets one as close as you can make it - think ACG would give it 99.99% FBL?? ;-)

Regards,

Frank

MICHAELDIXON

Frank,
I looked at your scans several times, blew them up and studied them and I would not grade the coin FBL. Like everybody else, the flat spot on the left of the crack seems to nullify the FBL designation.

FC57Coins

That seems to be the concensus Michael and I'll take the advice. I'm glad I put the post up so as to not make a blunder should I decide to sell the coin.

Regards,

Frank

TomB

To go back to your original question; you can ask whatever you want when you offer the coin for sale, however, what you get will depend on your resolve and your buyer's opinion.

IrishMike

Welcome to the world of grading companies. If you really think it is fbl send it to PCGS, if they say no, then you have two opinions disagreeing with you. That should answer your question.

FC57Coins

I hear everyone loud and clear, but just to show that the question of Full Bell lines is never 100% clear - take a look at the following pictures. The first is the original picture I was asking everyone's advice on then the next 5 are varying degree of bell strength as per PCGS. In each case the bell lines are there - but on some of them you have to strain - and that's all I'm saying with the original coin in question. I thought this whole exercise was kinda interesting.

Regards,

Frank

PS - sorry - I didn't realize they got alphabetized. The first is the original - then look at them in the following order: Strongest - Less Strong - Even Less - Dissappearing - Just about gone

Whitewashqtr

Frank

I think the lines are weak and from the scans it looks like it wouldnt grade that way. Obviously, you can qualify your sale by saying the you believe they are FBL, BUT.. many people would like that its a sales pitch. Either its FBL or not. You probably would be better by saying "just near FBL" or PQ for the grade, which would command a premium.

I dont like sales pitches to buys coins.. either I like it or not. By you telling me its FBl and it not being graded that way.. would turn me completely off to the coin. YOU have overgraded it at that point IMHO.

Good luck!!

supercoin

I have to agree with the "not FBL" crowd, but it shows once again what I feel is undue importance put on a designation like FBL.

If someone hadn't made up the "FBL" term, how would you rank these coins in terms of being well-struck?

FC57Coins

Supercoin:

I have to disagree with your assessment of FBL's - I think it is a good designation. If you look at a fully struck, full bell line coin, and understand that the full bell lines are there because the coin is fully struck and for no other reason, then you are looking at a coin that is beautiful in it's simplicity, extremely fragile because of all it's wide open areas, and in some cases it looks as though someone has carved it by hand. I think it is a good bellweather for this coin to determine whether it was minted properly.

Thanks for the input.

Regards,

Frank

Dog97

Supercoin Franklins are so bland, plain, & nondescript that the only way you can tell if it is well struck is by the bell lines! joking joking hold your flames
FC57Coins all the extra example pictures you posted look better than your subject coin because the lines maintain continuity. How ever Less Strong.jpg looks similiar to your subject coin. It actually looks like it has a cud interupting the lines left of the bell crack. I know you don't want to lose money. You overpaid for a substandard coin & sometimes you take a loss when you do the grading thing. We've all done it. As far as people saying it either is or it isn't, well it isn't that cut and dried. On a weak or borderline coin it can go either way. I say resubmit it

EVillageProwler

If someone hadn't made up the "FBL" term, how would you rank these coins in terms of being well-struck?

FC:

I think Supercoin was trying to say that strike designations, like FBL, are too arbitrary. Before the days of FBL, your coin probably would've been considered a well struck specimen. Now, w/o the FBL designation, you'll never be able to convince the insert-buyers that the coin has a well above average strike!

Real mathematicians (as opposed to applied, not fake, mathematicians!) would easily see the spectrum of striking definition as a bounded but continuous one. Yet, we coin people have arbitrarily taken this spectrum and made it discrete with only two elements!

For those who remember their calculus, what happens now to those coins whose striking definition approaches that demarcation as a limit from the left? (Everything to the right of that demarcation gets the FBL designation.) And, what about those coins that land right on the demarcation point? And, why is there suddenly a big difference between those that approach from the left and those that approach from the right?

In real analysis, this demarcation point has no dimension (no width) -- because it is a point. Thus, by the laws of calculus, coins that approach from the left and coins that approach from the right are all approcahing the same result!

But, in the actual world, there's a big difference.

Applied mathematicians can help out here too. They will say that this demarcation point isn't actually a point; it is a bubble of indeterminate variance due to human error. They know calculus too, and they'd be even more confused with happens to coins that approach from either the left or the right, since the demarcation is a moving target.

Coin people may argue that this demarcation bubble has a very small dimension. But, please note that in the coin biz, it is very easy to find two actual experts not agree on the grade of a coin -- and they'd both be correct!

I submit it would be mere child's play for logicians to destroy our hobby's notion of what is rational and appropriate.

I think, in the real world, it would still make more sense for us to eliminate strike designations and just allow the market to deal with it.

EVP