Are coin dealers starting to hate online auctions & their archives?
shylock
Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
After seeing the BIN for this 1873 DDO compared to the recent auction price, I wonder how dealers feel about the ease in which their buying price can often be traced. The internet has been great for expanding their sales, but it's becoming a double edged sword. Are coin dealer's starting to get more feedback about their ask prices, with clients using the original buy price as a bargaining tool? Do clients have any right to do that? After all, we all had the same opportunity to outbid them at auction if we were willing to make the sacrifice.
The shared information in the coin collecting world will only become more intense, as will the ability for collectors to outbid dealers at auction. Seems to me being a coin dealer is quicky becoming a much more complicated line of business.
The shared information in the coin collecting world will only become more intense, as will the ability for collectors to outbid dealers at auction. Seems to me being a coin dealer is quicky becoming a much more complicated line of business.
Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
0
Comments
"well teletrade has it cheaper"
FINE, DONT WASTE MY TIME, GO BUY FROM TELETRADE
but funny you dont see them doing that, do you?
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
because now what the services grade and what they put on the holder makes or breaks a dealers show. as it is all about the plastic, but then again the dealers are only giving for the most part what the coin buying public wants
i think without the grading services many dealers would soon be out of business or have to supplement their income, the grading services have made many many coin sellers rich
sincerely michael
The thing a lot of collectors don't have is time. Time to learn every nuance of every series. Time to skim through auction lots all year, and dealers inventories, looking for that "just right" coin. A reliable, competant dealer can and will do these things for you. The good dealers will always have business.
Good Thread!
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
I could not care less what profit or margin a seller/dealer makes. I don't want to feel stupid about the level I pay, but pay I will if I like the coin.
Now when I look at my reply I see that it didn't add much to the thread, except.... the dealers profit is up to the dealer.... my option as a buyer is to be satisfied... I can't see anything wrong with that.
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
Scanning Heritage prices realized along with the Redbook, Trends, Bluesheet, Graysheet gives me a ballpark figure but each coin (especially when discussing relatively expensive coins) has to stack up on its own merits to command the asking price based on the quality of that individual coin relative to the other coins in that grade. Even with the knowledge of a ballpark price tracking changes in demand and the unpredictable factor of who else is interest in the same coin and how deep their pockets render the knowledge and information available to us as buyers a useful tool but necessarily the last word when trying to negotiate with a dealer.
I don't particularly care what the seller's profit may be. If he buys smart and makes 100% profit more power to him as long as I'm happy with the coin and feel that I got the coin at a fair price base on my research and the quality of the individual coin.
There is a place for the retail selling of coins on the internet, especially those coins that are more of commodity type product. More expensive coins (even in light of the grading services), because there can be quite a variation in the quality within each grade point, make the price guides and published prices realize a useful tool but not the last word on the price of a coin.
adrian
myurl
jom
Suppose I have a dup 1850-O dollar in PCGS AU53 that I want to sell. I can point out to prospective buyers that at the last Bowers Baltimore sale (Wayne Rich?) in March, the Seated Dollars were going through the roof. The prices realized far exceeded the published bids... Granted, the bids are behind the times and these coins were mostly awesome. But, I can use this info in an attempt to validate my pricing!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
I'm sure I will get taken behind the woodshed for this but next time you go to buy a new car, politely but firmly remind the salesman that he adds no value to a car; only cost. Tell him that you can pay list price anywhere and that car really isn't WORTH any more than the factory is willing to sell it for. You might also mention that he needs you MORE than you need him. Report back here and tell us how it goes.
I don't think it is fair to compare most rare coin dealers to automobile sales people. For one thing, automobiles are commodities. Not including marketers, like on TV and those mass mail order people, most (or, many) rare coin dealers do know quite a bit about rare coins.
Take, for example, Jim Halperin and Q. David Bowers. Both are expert in numismatics; they know history, facts, rarities, etc., about coins in immense detail. They are authors, and they promote the industry. Even someone like Laurie Sperber (Miss Legend) -- Laurie, please pardon my expression -- doesn't deal with coins like commodities. She routinely separates the PQ specimens from the dross. She creates wonderful purchasing opportunities for her customers. (I still own the first coin I bought from her firm -- a lovely work of art. But, this isn't about Legend specifically!)
If you lump all coin dealers together with automobile sales people, then you'd never know what was good value and quality or not. That's one bit of value they (the good ones) add: they use their time and expertise to find the quality pieces their clients want.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I wasn't necessarily lumping them together for any particular reason tho it seems to me that one thing they pretty much have in common is that they both add mostly cost as opposed to value in what they sell. In the case of a car dealer one can guess pretty closely what their cost basis is. While its true a good coin dealer (less so with a car dealer/salesman IMHO) can keep you from getting screwed; the dealer to which this thread refers DID NOT add 16,500 in value to this coin as I see it.
One item in defense of the car salesmen tho; a visit to most any car dealer's used car lot will quickly reveal that the worst thing about an American car is that an American owned it.
BAJJERFAN
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Looking at past auction prices on a given piece may help with negotiations, but it really has nothing to do with the real value of the coin. Just as Laurie with Legend comments, a dealer (or collector) that's on the ball will use his experience and additional research to identify undervalued coins and will often buy them right out from under the noses of others at auction who are looking the other way.
GSAGUY
Regardless of what Heritage thinks, the 'value' of the coin is what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree that it is.
Also, I believe you can catch more flies with a week old dead rat than you can with honey.
GSAGUY
I've always said that what an owner paid for a coin has nothing to do with its value when he goes to sell it. In other words, the marketplace, in the form of a pool of potential buyers will determine its value. If he paid too much, he won't sell it at a profit and will likely lose money when he liquidates. If he got it at a great price, then he'll do well when he sells it. If it's worth $50,000 in the marketplace, then whether he paid $48,000 or $4,800 has nothing to do with the coin's value when he goes to sell it. Just because you know he paid $4,800, you can't accuse him of making too much profit if he gets the coin's value of $50K when he sells.
And, of course, the value of any given coin can be different to 10 different people. I may love an 1881-S in MS66 that the 'sheets' say has a value of $100 but because the coin possesses some of the most incredible toning I've ever seen, I'll pay $1500 for the coin. You might not want to pay the $100 because you don't like toning. So what's the real value of the coin?
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what Heritage or anyone else says is the value of a coin, the value is determined by the buyer.
And I still say that you can catch more flies with a week old dead rat than with honey!
GSAGUY
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"Never argue with a fool." -- Mark Twain
You act as if coin dealing is brain surgery. I know your a lawyer so your at the top of the ladder for coin dealers with smarts. Most are not real bright and live off the unsuspecting seller who walks through their door. In my town every dealer has "HIGHEST PRICES PAID" on their windows and they pay pennies on the dollar. Your giving coin dealers much more credit than they deserve.
edited for spelling, guess i'm not very bright either
I understood exactly the point of the question. I'm just trying to make the point that to the average dealer, what he paid for a coin may have nothing to do with his asking price and its ultimate value as perceived by a collector. He might ask for a 10% markup or a 100% markup depending on his current view of the coin's value.
I've heard more than one national dealer commenting that they've had collectors balk at paying an asking price for a piece that was bought at auction because they knew what he paid for the coin. Well, guess what? Those collectors often miss out on the coin. Such undervalued coins still typically bring full value on the market because not everyone is concerned with the dealer's profit on a single piece.
Buyers should always use whatever ethical means they have at their disposal to get the best price available from the dealer. The collector should just be prepared to see a neat piece go to someone else if the only excuse they have for countering his price is because he paid $XXXX for the coin.
GSAGUY
This 1873 DDO example is extreme, but these are the types of rare coins that are hard for most collectors to put a "reasonable" price tag on. Most collectors have never seen other examples at this level to form a frame of reference, and it's the kind of coin where a dealer might be inclined to throw a price against the wall due to the slab alone. I find the auction results extremely interesting in cases like this. What a floor full of dealers/collectors who saw the coin in person established as the buy price, even if it was a bit of a "rip", is a starting point. In this case I feel the dealer is now asking what another 65RB sold for that's in another class. All it will take is one guy paying the new price to prove me wrong, establishing a new price to add to the mix.
I can not understand why it should covern the buyers pricing of a coin related to what a dealer paid for it. I readily admit that I am not in a league of the multi-bucks that have been mentioned but I believe my thinking is in line.
If I was interested in a coin, knew that the seller paid X and was looking a little beyond my range I would simply ask if he had any leeway with the price. Personally I could not care what the dealer makes (actually I hope he makes a profit and stays in business..for me!).
My comments are meant as a buyer of much lower range cost of coins than $48-50,000 but ...heck I like my coins also and for me a purchase above the $2-300 range is a biggie.
I still believe my thinking is correct even if my pricing range may be lower.
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com