What is your definition of "Premimum"?

WWBillman

I am not talking about monster toned coins that sell for 20X value in auction. In general what would be considered premimum for a PQ coin for a collector to pay when buying a coin from, lets say a dealer. I always hear how the PCGS price guide overvalues most coins. Would the PCGS price guide be considered Premimum in most cases? Is buying a coin solid for the grade at or just below the PCGS price guide a bad thing (I am also not talking about the everyday run of the mill Ebay coins)?

Steve27

In theory, a coin "solid for the grade" for which one would pay a premium, should sell for gray sheet "ask" vice "bid," which would still be well below PCGS price-guide prices. I find that PCGS price-guide prices reflect high retail.

WWBillman

What if the coin is a MS66 or better? Gray Sheet does not apply to those coins?

Typetone

For series I follow, I find the PCGS price guides to be too high in some cases and too low in others. For example, in proof Franklins anyone can buy nice pieces well under list. On the other hand, in cs lib nickels, no way can you buy 65s and better other than common dates, for anywhere close to list prices. The list for higher grade CS Washington quarters (which seems to be frequently updated) seem to be a good representation of retail prices, though I'm sure the real experts will find some inconsistencies there as well. Prices for high grade IKEs are way too low to represent the market.

I guess what I am saying is that there is no substitute for knowing the series you are collecting. You have to follow the major auctions and see what the lead dealers are asking. I think knowing a series gives you an advantage over the broad line dealers. Nothing feels better than picking off Heritage.

So what to pay for a PQ coin. First you have to know what a PQ coin is, don't believe the dealer hype. Second, know the real market for the grade and the grade above. Decide if the coin is an upgrade candidate. Then decide for yourself. How much do you want a better example. I consider Teletrade to be the market for average, generic coins. I will usually pay at least 10% to 20% over Teletrade to a dealer who is offering what I believe to be a PQ coin. Typically I won't pay more than that but just wait. I never go wild in auctions. Paying 20X for a monster to me isn't worth it. Always have to consider if you can get the same premium when its time to resell.

Bottom line on my view. If you are relying on a price guide, you lose. Either you won't buy anything, or you will pay too much. Don't forget who is writing the guide. If it's not you, good luck.

Greg

WashqrtrsRme

Bill, I believe there are many ways in which "premium" can be looked at when considering buying a coin. First of all, I think it's a matter of personal choice/satisfaction with liking a particular coin. I am an advanced collector of Washington quarters (1932-1964). Like many people, I too believe that some coin prices stated within the PCGS price guide are possibly "inflated" slightly...but by no means not all of them. I am currently in the process of obtaining some additional MS67 coins to add to my Registry set, and for some of the PCGS prices for certain dates in the MS67 grade, the prices in the price guide are too LOW, based on populations for that date, and depending on the dealer you are working with and what he has to sell it at. I do business with a gentleman who is a dealer located in California, who shall remain nameless for this discussion. What I can tell you is that he is, in my opinion, the most knowledgeable Washington quarter collector/dealer I have ever known, and I've been at this game a while myself. He has outstanding merchandise, top-notch, and follows the series like no one I've ever known. What I'm saying is that he knows his business well, and the prices for coins in this series. He feels (as do I) that some coins are underpriced in higher mint state grades in the PCGS priceguide for this particular series. As an example, the PCGS price guide lists the 1943-S in MS67 at $950. Granted, it's a lot of money to pay for a coin, but good luck finding one in that grade, and for being able to find one at that price...it's too low on a very low pop. coin. This is only one example of pricing, but never the less, you're talking about a rare, PQ coin...you don't see them every day.
I think everyone has their own idea of what "premium" means to them and what they are willing to pay for a coin. To me, if I find a coin which I really, really like and I think it's "head and shoulders" above others I've seen of the same date, whether it be for luster, strike, eye appeal, toning...whatever, I will pay what I feel is a "reasonable" amount above retail for that coin, if I like it that much. It's really a matter of personal choice. Do you like the coin so much that you just "have got to have it"?. A good question to ask yourself when considering buying a coin is this: if you like a coin so much, and if you pass up buying it, will you regret it? That usually gives me my answer. You know if a coin is PQ or not. They don't come along all that often, so you'd better think twice before passing it up, if it's within your means to obtain it and you're comfortable with that price. I won't pay a ridiculous sum of money for a coin, but I will pay above retail if I really like a coin...YOU have to be saitisfied with the coin and with the price paid...that's the bottom line, I think. To answer your question, I'd have to say "no", paying slightly below, at or even somewhat above retail is not a bad thing, as long as you know what you're doing. When will this (or will this) opportunity present itself again? Ask yourself that question. PQ collections contain PQ coins. Life is too short for regrets...

Tom Schiera

IrishMike

Bill, a coin with a star on in it.

WWBillman

Good one Mike, but I don't think I will be looking at the stars any time soon.

michael

to me premium means a very nice eye appealling coin for the grade like a premium ms 65 pcgs 1884 cc morgan if premium to me this means not dipped and very nice 65 for the grade and grreat booming lustre and great eye appeal not good or very good but great!! maybe not a 66 but a very nice 65 and ever so close to 66 like 65.9 so if a nice 66 is worth retail 3200 then a coin like the 65 i decsribed above is a 500 dollar coin maybe more

i think it is very hard to describe in words but show me a coin that is within or close to my speciality and i will tell you if it si premium or not

sincerely michael

WWBillman

michael,

I think you misunderstood a bit.

When I say Premimum I am talking about the money you will spend on a coin. What is considered Premimum money? PCGS price guide? Bluesheet ask? (Except bluesheet does not cover any grade above MS65)

Everyone says they will pay premimum for a PQ coin (And I have more than once), well what is premimum? PCGS price guide is considered Retail so would it also be considered the closest guide we have in determining premimum (retail)?

I know nothing is absolute.

Cocoinut

For a coin that's frequently available for sale, I figure about 75% of the PCGS price guide is realistic. Auction prices for coins that are PQ and/or seldom offered can be closer to the PCGS guide. Many large dealers routinely sell their coins for approximately the PCGS prices, which is to be expected from a retail business with high overhead. For that reason, I try to use dealers primarily for the tougher dates that appear infrequently, and that I have trouble finding anywhere else.

Jim

tradedollarnut

I have no problem paying midway to the next grade's price for the right coin.

BTW - it's ''premium"

Android

First of all, I will only pay a premium for a coin I see in person. Never, never, never will I pay a premium for a coin from e-bay, teletrade, heritage or anywhere, from a scan regardless of the grading service. The biggest dissapointments I have had buying coins have been buying certified ones on the internet. A premium to me represents paying above "ask" (grey sheet) for what I consider a PQ coin for grades up to MS65. For higher grades, I like to use Heritage's "index", which gives a range of prices that they track, that I believe they have realized in their auctions. A premium in this case is paying above this index for a sight seen coin. Numismedia has a wholesale and retail index that I look at as well.

The PCGS price guide, IMO, is wishful thinking for the most part, of the dealers who sell PCGS graded coins. If these dealers can get these prices, then more power to them! With all the widely varying price "guides" out there, it's a tough call from a technical perspective. One man's premium may be another man's discount.

Andy

michael

oh i understand now i will have to read and reread verytg carefully in the future well for me a premium is multiples of greysheet bid since i do not like sheets i will still use this as an example as most all people i talk to use greysheet bid when they say it is for sale at three 5 10 2 times bid..... etc etc
and it all depends on the coin and the series here is something that i cant even put into words but show me a coin and i can tell you waht premium it is worth and for some coins that sell for a 2x premium or more of greysheet they are usually great and still undervalued coins

for example i had someone i know spend 7 times greysheet bid for a ngc coin solid to hi end for the grade but this coin has fantastic lustre booming thruogh the rainbow toning not ever seen like this. mostly on the obverse and it was real toning also this coin being a boone never has lustre like this and mostly comes with ugly toned colours like brownish yellow and subdued lustre they still got a great deal for the coin at 7 times bid but you had to see and understand the coin and this coin was a better deal than any other boone even at ask if it is blast white! it all depends on the coin

what you have to do in coins is three things SPECIALIZE SPECIALIZE SPECIALIZE then you get to know your market and can determine values and cherrie pick great coins


this market is all about knowledge and SPECIALIZATION if you know waht you are looking at sheets mean nothing for great coins

also some of the pcgs price guides coins are overpriced some way over some underpriced i guess pcgs is right on the money price wise for many coins ngc/pcgs as long as the coin is a hi end coin and has a great look with even greater eye appeal but you must go on a case by case basis

sincerely michael

PQpeace

ttt

Fairlaneman

Solid for the grade is this Preminum or did I read too much into the original post ? Any way solid for the grade coins get Gray Sheet offers of between bid and ask from myself. If the coin is truly Premimum for the grade IMO then something between the given Gray Sheet published price for the coins grade and the next higher grade is offered. If the Coin is a hard date to locate all sheets are thrown out and the gut feeling is used.

This is what is used on the series I collect where little Price movement is reflected on the published price sheets. Coins of other series where the Pricing is very Volitile would IMO command a whole different buying pattern and set of rules. Type Coins seem to fit this description as they seem to go in and out of Favor for some reason.

Bear

Winged liberty guy - Good response, made sense to me. But what the heck do I know, im only a little bear.

WWBillman

Fairlaneman,

Solid for the grade was a typo. I am refering to the PQ high end for the grade coins.
Again Grey sheet is mentioned but grey sheet does not cover anything above the MS65 grade.

Example; I bought a 1918 Standing Liberty Quarter PCGS MS66FH from one of the major players/retail dealers. This thing is pure white and the luster is just dripping off it, as typical the strike is a little weak in a couple of the shield rivits and toes but that luster more than compensates for it. To me this coin is PQ. The dealer was asking over PCGS price guide for the coin, I offered just under the PCGS price guide and now own the coin.

I don't know I think my question is starting to confuse me a bit. But for coins graded MS66 and better is the PCGS price guide a good guide when determining on average whats Premimum money for a PQ high end coin?

Fairlaneman

Bill:

For 66 Mercs I use the Blue Sheet and the Gray Sheet in combination. Some of the Merc prices for 66 coins are the same price as the 65 Gray Sheet price. Of course if I want the coin I add a little to the 65 Gray Sheet price as I know a dealer will not sell a 66 at 65 price, well most will not some actually have. For the Rarer Dates I still stick with the first response "Gut Feeling". Have only bought a couple of these but the way prices have been from watching Auctions and Ebay it looks as if the method has worked OK so far. Knocking on wood. Have quite a few coins in the Set after 1934 that are 66 or 66FB these are bought at as close to Blue Sheet as possible as I believe the Populations of these coins are easily open to population increases thus dropping the price of the coin down further. Before 1934 the above statements apply.

Ken

Bear

Ken - It seems that every time I have a gut feeling, its a case of intestinal flu. Bear

Fairlaneman

Bear:

Thats why I have very few 66 coins. I am in the same boat as you. Older age is just Wonderful.

Ken

roadrunner

I don't follow the PCGS price list but use the Grey sheet for comparison. For a truly PQ coin I expect to pay
up to "ask" in most cases. I have no problem however paying 5-10% over ask or 20-25% over bid for real nice coins. Like TDN said, I'll go half way to the next grade if the coin is nearly the next grade (64++, 65++, 66++).
This assumes a basic doubling in price to the next grade and usually works fairly well for most classic type coins. For those coins that might triple or quadruple or more, a lot more thought needs to be applied. You wouldn't do this for an 1886-0 dollar in MS64++.

It should also be noted that the premium being assigned to PQ coins is growing as we speak. The sheets
aren't keeping up with the market. "Ask" is already an outdated price on many better coins. Passing on a neat and rare coin because it is 5-10% ask might be a mistake.

If you don't see a 66 or 67 grade on the Greysheet, interpolate using the blue sheet. Find the ratio of say a 66 coin to a 65 coin on blue sheet, and then ratio that to the price of a 65 on grey sheet. It will get you in the ballpark. Same thing works for 67 grade. Check the pops between the two major services before you pay a big premium. There are some coins where the pops don't even double from say 67 to 66 grade or 66 to 65 grade.
Those may not offer good value.

roadrunner