I don't see it as a stop.
I think it's more probable to be a re-cut "F".
Much like the "G" of the abbreviated Dei Gratia or the "H" in Philip.
Best bet, should you feel strongly it could be an extra stop, is to do some additional searching to see if you could possibly locate another example. Conversely, your searching may turn up more evidence of it being a re-cut letter, then again perhaps it's something else altogether.
@JohnnyCache said:
I don't see it as a stop.
I think it's more probable to be a re-cut "F".
Much like the "G" of the abbreviated Dei Gratia or the "H" in Philip.
Best bet, should you feel strongly it could be an extra stop, is to do some additional searching to see if you could possibly locate another example. Conversely, your searching may turn up more evidence of it being a re-cut letter, then again perhaps it's something else altogether.
It is the angle of the metal like a 45 degree separation that is why I mentioned a possible 5-pointed star. And extra ''F'' would be flat 90 degrees and in this case it does not look like that is the case. Only stop that has 45 degrees is the 5-pointed star.
Would be strange indeed if it is a 5-pointed star but when I look at it nothing else makes any sens.
I will keep an eye open I have seen maybe ten 1739's none had this.
Will send the images to Yonaka and see what he thinks. I always send him new varieties I find so he can have the images for his possible future book.
Yes those are for sure F over F. Thanks for sharing. I looked with my jewellers loop and mine sure seems to be a 5-pointed star. I know for sure mine is not an F over F.
Lots of re-work happened on that reverse die. Like the 5th leg on that bottom lion. Could also be die wear / deterioration. You can see the effect inside some of the letters, like inside the legs of the M and inside the A in HISPAN or RE in REX. I don't think it's a 5-point star (i assume you're referring to the rosettes above and below the denomination) as the rays are not that long. I would look for other examples of this die in different die states to help find the answer.
@TwoKopeiki said:
Lots of re-work happened on that reverse die. Like the 5th leg on that bottom lion. Could also be die wear / deterioration. You can see the effect inside some of the letters, like inside the legs of the M and inside the A in HISPAN or RE in REX. I don't think it's a 5-point star (i assume you're referring to the rosettes above and below the denomination) as the rays are not that long. I would look for other examples of this die in different die states to help find the answer.
Possibly not a 5-pointed star but for sure not F over F.
I think it’s probably an F over F, maybe there’s a die crack in there also. Doesn’t look right to me to be an errant star. There’s so much recutting and reusing and die cracks and cuds on these that sometimes it’s hard to really tell. I believe if you were to overlay a star it wouldn’t make angular sense. Or size. What you’re looking at would make two points of a very large star. Besides, there’s no evidence that stars were even used at this time. They’re all rosettes (and at some points, very rosette looking stars.) A star that big…there’s just no history to support it. You’re left with figuring out what else I could be, a big star just doesn’t make sense.
Brad Yonaka got back to me via e-mail this is what he said:
Hi,
Most 1736-39 1R have a little spur or spurs that come off of the F. But this is the first one I've seen that shows a lot more detail, I agree that it does look like a floret, but very different style than the one on the right side of the coin. I have saved the photo and will see if I can fit it into the die matches for this date. If it is a stop of some sort, it is in a strange place. It can't be a reworked die from 1733, because that would have an F in the top position. Thank you for sending on the photos!
TheGoonies1985
Posts: 5,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
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Anyone have any input?
I don't see it as a stop.
I think it's more probable to be a re-cut "F".
Much like the "G" of the abbreviated Dei Gratia or the "H" in Philip.
Best bet, should you feel strongly it could be an extra stop, is to do some additional searching to see if you could possibly locate another example. Conversely, your searching may turn up more evidence of it being a re-cut letter, then again perhaps it's something else altogether.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
It is the angle of the metal like a 45 degree separation that is why I mentioned a possible 5-pointed star. And extra ''F'' would be flat 90 degrees and in this case it does not look like that is the case. Only stop that has 45 degrees is the 5-pointed star.
Would be strange indeed if it is a 5-pointed star but when I look at it nothing else makes any sens.
I will keep an eye open I have seen maybe ten 1739's none had this.
Will send the images to Yonaka and see what he thinks. I always send him new varieties I find so he can have the images for his possible future book.
I just messaged Brad Yonaka will see if he has any input on this possible new variety.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Yes those are for sure F over F. Thanks for sharing. I looked with my jewellers loop and mine sure seems to be a 5-pointed star. I know for sure mine is not an F over F.
Lots of re-work happened on that reverse die. Like the 5th leg on that bottom lion. Could also be die wear / deterioration. You can see the effect inside some of the letters, like inside the legs of the M and inside the A in HISPAN or RE in REX. I don't think it's a 5-point star (i assume you're referring to the rosettes above and below the denomination) as the rays are not that long. I would look for other examples of this die in different die states to help find the answer.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Possibly not a 5-pointed star but for sure not F over F.
Oh... I just thought that Lion was very well endowed.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
This one it is similar:
I think it’s probably an F over F, maybe there’s a die crack in there also. Doesn’t look right to me to be an errant star. There’s so much recutting and reusing and die cracks and cuds on these that sometimes it’s hard to really tell. I believe if you were to overlay a star it wouldn’t make angular sense. Or size. What you’re looking at would make two points of a very large star. Besides, there’s no evidence that stars were even used at this time. They’re all rosettes (and at some points, very rosette looking stars.) A star that big…there’s just no history to support it. You’re left with figuring out what else I could be, a big star just doesn’t make sense.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Same effect on the F on several different dies there... defective punch?
Thanks for the input guys much appreciated!!!
fwiw, imho, it looks more like little pieces of the die broke off in several places (die erosion) than an repunched letter
Brad Yonaka got back to me via e-mail this is what he said:
Hi,
Most 1736-39 1R have a little spur or spurs that come off of the F. But this is the first one I've seen that shows a lot more detail, I agree that it does look like a floret, but very different style than the one on the right side of the coin. I have saved the photo and will see if I can fit it into the die matches for this date. If it is a stop of some sort, it is in a strange place. It can't be a reworked die from 1733, because that would have an F in the top position. Thank you for sending on the photos!
Best regards,
Brad
I sent this image to Brad Yonaka as well to show him mine is not the only known.
I found that 1R image here:
https://www.coindatabase.com/coin_detail_pesetas.php?cdb=H151610
HTH
Thanks ELuis I will let Brad know.